gnasher Posted February 3, 2011 Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 I gave South the hand from this thread, and generated ten deals where North had a pass and East had a 1♦ opening. I threw out one of them, because North would open (he had - KQJ1074 KJ108 J94). I'll post the full hands later, with the criteria. First of all, here are the West hands. What would you do after pass-1♦-3♠, at adverse? 1) K863 KT843 AQ8 J2) J4 KJ3 AJT AJT743) 8 KQJ83 9 AKQT744) J73 KQJ AJ98 Q545) KJ4 AJT7 JT9 A876) J7 T84 Q74 AK8437) K74 KT874 74 K988) 87 KT8 AJ8 AT9849) 763 QJ873 Q7 KJ5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted February 3, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 3, 2011 Below is my code. The constraint on the North hand is rather primitive, but I knew that I was going to be going through them by hand. south is "AQT952 952 62 62" main { if {[hcp north] < 12 && [open_1d east] } { accept } reject } proc open_1d {hand} { set hcp [hcp $hand] set s [spades $hand] set h [hearts $hand] set d [diamonds $hand] set c [clubs $hand] if {[balanced $hand]} { if {$hcp >= 15 && $hcp <= 17} { reject } if {$hcp < 12 || $hcp > 19} { reject } } elseif {$hcp < 10 || $hcp > 21} { reject } if {$d > 4} { if {$d > $s && $d > $h && $d >= $c} { accept } } elseif {$d == 4} { if {$s < 5 && $h < 5 && $c <= 4} { accept } } elseif {$d == 3} { if {$s == 4 && $h == 4} { accept } } reject } Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 1] pass2] X3] 4♠4] pass5] 3NT6] pass7] pass8] pass9] pass Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 1) X2) X3) 4C4) X5) 3N6) X7) P8) X9) P 1 and 6 I felt were interesting and am not sure about my choice, the others I feel are pretty much automatic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigel_k Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 1) X2) X3) 4C4) X5) 3N6) P7) P8) X9) P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecalm Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 I found 3) interesting, what about 4NT ? (as 2suiter). I think 4♣ just loses heart suit forever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecalm Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 1] pass2] X3] 4♠4] pass5] 3NT6] pass7] pass8] pass9] pass You have 14 and 12pc respctively in 4 and 8... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 1) K863 KT843 AQ8 J 3N 2) J4 KJ3 AJT AJT74 X3) 8 KQJ83 9 AKQT74 4H4) J73 KQJ AJ98 Q54 X5) KJ4 AJT7 JT9 A87 3N6) J7 T84 Q74 AK843 X7) K74 KT874 74 K98 P8) 87 KT8 AJ8 AT984 X9) 763 QJ873 Q7 KJ5 P 4 is a classic problem, I think 3 and 6 are difficult also. To be fair, many of these are difficult hands after 1♦-2♠ as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted February 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 To be fair, many of these are difficult hands after 1♦-2♠ as well.That's true, and anyway giving the opponents a bidding problem doesn't in itself win IMPs - sometimes it looks hard but it turns out that anything works. Anyway, I think this is more interesting than "I'd bid 2♠", "I'd bid 3♠", "I think that's silly", "I don't", which is about as far as we'd got in the other thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karlson Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 That's true, and anyway giving the opponents a bidding problem doesn't in itself win IMPs - sometimes it looks hard but it turns out that anything works. Anyway, I think this is more interesting than "I'd bid 2♠", "I'd bid 3♠", "I think that's silly", "I don't", which is about as far as we'd got in the other thread. Sure, can't argue with any of that. Also, I've changed my mind on #3. Playing a possible grand in 4♥ is too much, so I think it's right to start with 4♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 (edited) But this is only one side of the story - you should give all four hands and see all their decisions. Then you should give hands where "we" would bid 3♠ and you 3♠, then some hands where we would bid 3♠ and you 4♠, then hands where we'd pass or 1♠ and you'd bid 2♠. Then we would find out the estimates for all these probabilities, then estimates of all the imp losses, wins, pushes, then multiply and add together everything. But if the world ends in December 2012, I would bet against a definitive conclusion, or any conclusion. Nevertheless, this opening post sounds like 'do you see, 3♠ causes more problems than 2♠!'. I think we all knew that did we not? edit: but now that I read your opening post a little more carefully, I would like to retract this post. it was written in haste and is unfair. Edited February 4, 2011 by gwnn Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted February 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 My answers (trying the ignore the UI from having seen the hands)1) 3NT2) 4C3) 4C4) 4D5) 3NT6) pass7) dbl8) dbl9) dbl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted February 4, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 But this is only one side of the story - you should give all four hands and see all their decisions. Then you should give hands where "we" would bid 3♠ and you 3♠, then some hands where we would bid 3♠ and you 4♠, then hands where we'd pass or 1♠ and you'd bid 2♠. Then we would find out the estimates for all these probabilities, then estimates of all the imp losses, wins, pushes, then multiply and add together everything. But if the world ends in December 2012, I would bet against a definitive conclusion, or any conclusion. Nevertheless, this opening post sounds like 'do you see, 3♠ causes more problems than 2♠!'. I think we all knew that did we not? edit: but now that I read your opening post a little more carefully, I would like to retract this post. it was written in haste and is unfair. OK, I won't post my rebuttal then :) I fact, I agree with most of what you said - I don't think this will prove anything, though I do think it might be informative. Also, I'm happy to do the same thing for what you'd regard as a typical 3♠ bid, if you tell me what South's hand should be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paulg Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 But if the world ends in December 2012, I would bet against a definitive conclusion, or any conclusion.<off-topic>You watch Shameless? (A tv programme that some would call a simulation of real life)</off-topic> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rhm Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 1) X2) X3) 4C4) X5) 3N6) X7) P8) X9) P 1 and 6 I felt were interesting and am not sure about my choice, the others I feel are pretty much automatic. I agree on that, except that I would pass on 6) and double on 7)As the bidding went, both 6) and 7) are close in strength, but 7) has more to gain from a double than 6).If partner bids 3NT, 6) is slightly better, but I would feel uncomfortable if he bids 4♥. I think you need more strength when you double without 4 cards in ♥. And if partner passes the "takeout" double, which he often will do for lack of anything better, I definitely prefer 7). Rainer Herrmann Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 You have 14 and 12pc respctively in 4 and 8... 4) J73 KQJ AJ98 Q54 looks like 3343 to me8) 87 KT8 AJ8 AT984 looks like 2335 to me did this get edited or did some card look funny to you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluecalm Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 4) J73 KQJ AJ98 Q54 looks like 3343 to me8) 87 KT8 AJ8 AT984 looks like 2335 to me did this get edited or did some card look funny to you? I meant that you have 14hcp in the first hand and 12hcp so passing is inconceivable to me :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted February 4, 2011 Report Share Posted February 4, 2011 I meant that you have 14hcp in the first hand and 12hcp so passing is inconceivable to me :-) Yes I guess it would be if you play regularly with a partner who refuses to protect you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 double 1) K863 KT843 AQ8 J : I want to propose 4♥ next, I have too much diamonds for 3NT, reverse minors and 3NT it is.double 2) J4 KJ3 AJT AJT744 clubs 3) 8 KQJ83 9 AKQT74double 4) J73 KQJ AJ98 Q543NT 5) KJ4 AJT7 JT9 A87double 6) J7 T84 Q74 AK843pass 7) K74 KT874 74 K98double 8) 87 KT8 AJ8 AT984 (very similiar to 2)pass 9) 763 QJ873 Q7 KJ5 Other than one I think all are automatic, I notice I bid the same as Justin but the opposite of Andy, not sure how to read it :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
awm Posted February 5, 2011 Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 1) K863 KT843 AQ8 JDouble. 2) J4 KJ3 AJT AJT74Double. 3) 8 KQJ83 9 AKQT744♣. 4) J73 KQJ AJ98 Q543NT. 5) KJ4 AJT7 JT9 A873NT. 6) J7 T84 Q74 AK843Pass. 7) K74 KT874 74 K98Pass. 8) 87 KT8 AJ8 AT984Double. 9) 763 QJ873 Q7 KJ5 Pass. I guess I mostly agree with Justin and Fluffy. The ones where I differ include (4), where I think that 3NT will very often be our best spot but that partner is unlikely to bid it over my double. On (6) I don't really like to double with only three hearts -- I know I did it on two other hands, but this hand is very borderline to act at the three-level and my hearts are three little, unlike hands (2) and (8) where pass isn't really an option and double seems like least of evils. To pooltuna, I don't really think that balancing after 1♦-3♠-Pass-Pass on a minimum opener is good bridge. Given this, if I have a hand that expects to make game opposite a minimum opener in this auction I will normally not pass in responder's seat. Sure, partner will protect if he has extras and short spades (that's why I passed on 7 and 9) but not on some 12-count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted February 5, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2011 Here are the hands, a breakdown of West's calls, and my analysis (which feel free to challange). I think the ones where the 3♠ overcall might have affected the result are 2 (possibly), 6, 7, 8 and 9 I haven't changed Karlson's vote on 3, because I assume his first choice is what he would have actually bid. Likewise, I haven't changed any of my bids, even though I don't understand all of them. (1) S: J4 H: QJ76 D: J9 C: AQT94 S: K863 S: 7 H: KT843 H: A D: AQ8 D: KT7543 C: J C: K8753 S: AQT952 H: 952 D: 62 C: 62(North may open)Dbl 5, 3NT 2, pass 1Double and 3NT lead to making games; pass probably doesn't.--------------------------(2) S: 87 H: Q76 D: Q75 C: K9853 S: J4 S: K63 H: KJ3 H: AT84 D: AJT D: K9843 C: AJT74 C: Q S: AQT952 H: 952 D: 62 C: 62Dbl 7, 4C 1All actions lead to 5D or 4H. These make with careful play and normal views. 3NT would probably make unless declarer played for spades to be 7-1.After a 2S overcall, we'd get to and make 3NT.--------------------------(3) S: K643 H: AT76 D: 543 C: J9 S: 8 S: J7 H: KQJ83 H: 4 D: 9 D: AKQJT87 C: AKQT74 C: 853 S: AQT952 H: 952 D: 62 C: 62(East may open 3NT)4C 6, 4H 1, 4S 1, 4NT 1All actions except 4H lead to a making game.--------------------------(4) S: K86 H: AT4 D: T75 C: JT93 S: J73 S: 4 H: KQJ H: 8763 D: AJ98 D: KQ43 C: Q54 C: AK87 S: AQT952 H: 952 D: 62 C: 62Dbl 5, 3NT 1, 4D 1, pass 1Double leads to a making 5D, the esoteric 4D leads to 4D, pass probably leads to 3S--------------------------(5) S: 73 H: Q864 D: K83 C: KJ93 S: KJ4 S: 86 H: AJT7 H: K3 D: JT9 D: AQ754 C: A87 C: QT54 S: AQT952 H: 952 D: 62 C: 62(East may not open)3NT 83NT makes--------------------------(6) S: 63 H: QJ76 D: AJT5 C: QJ7 S: J7 S: K84 H: T84 H: AK3 D: Q74 D: K983 C: AK843 C: T95 S: AQT952 H: 952 D: 62 C: 62Pass 5, dbl 3Pass leads to a small plus; Double leads to either 3Sx-2 or 3NT-3Not clear what would happen after a 2S overcall.--------------------------(7) S: J3 H: Q3 D: AKJ83 C: 7543 S: K74 S: 86 H: KT874 H: AJ6 D: 74 D: QT95 C: K98 C: AQJT S: AQT952 H: 952 D: 62 C: 62(North may open)Pass 6, dbl 2Pass leads to a small plus; not clear what double leads to - anything from +620 to -200.Not clear what would happen after a 2S overcall.--------------------------(8) S: 64 H: AQ643 D: Q4 C: K753 S: 87 S: KJ3 H: KT8 H: J7 D: AJ8 D: KT9753 C: AT984 C: QJ S: AQT952 H: 952 D: 62 C: 62(North may open; East may not)Dbl 7, pass 1Double may lead to 5D-3, 3NT-1 or 3Sx=After a 2S overcall we'd probably reach 3NT.--------------------------(9) S: J84 H: AKT D: 853 C: QT84 S: 763 S: K H: QJ873 H: 64 D: Q7 D: AKJT94 C: KJ5 C: A973 S: AQT952 H: 952 D: 62 C: 62Pass 8, dbl 1Pass probably leads to a small plus from 3S, unless East protects with 3NTDouble leads to 3NT= or 5D-1Not clear what would happen after a 2S overcall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mbodell Posted February 6, 2011 Report Share Posted February 6, 2011 But this is only one side of the story - you should give all four hands and see all their decisions. Then you should give hands where "we" would bid 3♠ and you 3♠, then some hands where we would bid 3♠ and you 4♠, then hands where we'd pass or 1♠ and you'd bid 2♠. While I agree with your general point that we'd need to evaluate all the other possible bids and second and third order ramifications, it is possible that someone bids 3♠ with the hand from the other thread but still pretty much bids 4♠ only when you would. You'd still need to compare what happens when you bid 3♠ because partner would know more precisely your hand (both for sacrifice and defensive play), but a super wide ranging 3rd seat 3♠ doesn't have to widen your 4♠ by much if at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted February 7, 2011 Report Share Posted February 7, 2011 My main worry with 3S is that partner takes it seriously. On hands 3, 4 and 9, will north raise to 4S? (or even 5S on 3?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.