Defending against multi

[han]

You hold Jx Axxx AKxx Qxx, white against red, team game.

 

LHO opens 2D, multi, partner bids 2H (natural) and RHO doubles, pass or correct.

 

What would you do?

 

What would you do if either opponent bids 4S next?

[bluecalm]

Nevermind, I miscounted points :)

 

I bid 4H now and then double.

[mtvesuvius]

I have the agreement that the other major in these situations is a cuebid, so I'd bid 2♠ then Double after that.

[dcohio]

How limited is partner? With 16+ he'd double first right? If so, I'd assume you are looking at 10-15 points across from you, so I bid 4H now and X 4S.

[manudude03]

2♠ (unassuming cue) +X for me

[gnasher]

I'd bid 2♠, because that's probably my only way to show a good raise (though with good agreements one might have more).

 

As some of the other posts suggest, this might depend on what partner has shown. Playing the normal English defence to a Multi, partner isn't particularly limited - just the same range as an overcall over a natural weak two. Some people play that all hands with 16+ start with a double, in which case 2♥ is limited. However, playing either method I'd want to involve partner in the decision about what to do over 4♠.

 

On the next round, if I'd shown a limit raise or better, and one of the opponents bid 4♠, I'd double to say that I had more than what I'd already shown. Unless I could make a forcing pass, of course.

[nige1]

You hold Jx Axxx AKxx Qxx, white against red, team game. LHO opens 2D, multi, partner bids 2H (natural) and RHO doubles, pass or correct. What would you do? What would you do if either opponent bids 4S next?

IMO _P = 10, 2N (good raise) = 9, 2♠ = 8, 4♥ = 7.

Test to see if opponents know their agreements To avoid an adverse ruling try not to look worried when you pass the double. If vulnerable opponents sacrifice in 4♠, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. :)

[mtvesuvius]

IMO _P = 10, 2N (good raise) = 9, 2♠ = 8, 4♥ = 7.

Test to see if opponents know their agreements To avoid an adverse ruling try not to look worried when you pass the double. If vulnerable opponents sacrifice in 4♠, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. :)

Always more fun to be guessing when you could just involve partner by bidding 2♠.

[dellache]

I'd bid 4♥, then DBL.

I agree that 2♠ first is clever, but we don't have this agreement in our pair and I don't want do have to deal with 2♠ (X) Pass (4♠).

[rhm]

I'd bid 4♥, then DBL.

I agree that 2♠ first is clever

 

I am not so sure.

Maybe the agreement is clever. Trouble is, that people overuse their clever agreements. They want to show to their partners how clever they are and will use such agreements whenever anything remotely resembling hands suitable for such agreements come up.

Given the bidding so far it is quite unlikely that you have slam now.

Bidding 4♥ and then pull out the red card is probably clever. But of course you do not need any fancy agreements to do that.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[gnasher]

Who said anything about slam? I'm concerned about doing the right thing over 4♠.

[rhm]

Who said anything about slam? I'm concerned about doing the right thing over 4♠.

 

Oh very simple. I said I would pull out the red card.

Having double raised my partner into game a subsequent double shows that my raise was based on strength, not on distribution.

Otherwise I would pass or bid on. Such doubles tell partner that this is our hand and opponents are sacrificing.

Partner should consider such doubles optional, not based on a stack in opponent's suit.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[gnasher]

Oh very simple. I said I would pull out the red card.

Having double raised my partner into game a subsequent double shows that my raise was based on strength, not on distribution.

Otherwise I would pass or bid on. Such doubles tell partner that this is our hand and opponents are sacrificing.

Partner should consider such doubles optional, not based on a stack in opponent's suit.

In my partnerships, the way to show that hand is to cue-bid and then double 4♠. A direct raise followed by a double of 4♠ shows two-way values and a desire to compete, but not enough to be sure of defeating 4♠.

 

My preferred method allows me to show two different hands, whereas yours allows you to show only one. What are the compensating benefits of your approach, apart from simplicity?

[pooltuna]

Always more fun to be guessing when you could just involve partner by bidding 2♠.

 

It is even better when the OP tells us what the calls mean. For example IMO a weak multi 2♦ call is nearly insane at these colors and form of scoring so are the opps playing 2♦ as intermediate/strong balanced, i.e. do we have any feel for the opps sanity level? What kind of overcalls can I expect from partner in this situation, i.e. is he making a preempt? Don't tell me you don't make preemptive overcalls/preempts as IMO it is not clear that the opps are really preempting!

[rhm]

A direct raise followed by a double of 4♠ shows two-way values and a desire to compete, but not enough to be sure of defeating 4♠.

 

Yes I like to keep it simple, not least because experience tells me of the many misunderstanding or misinterpretations with little to show for them.

If I am not sure defeating 4♠ I usually will not double. An exception might be if I think it more important to warn partner going on.

I also think you underestimate the advantage of taking away bidding space from opponents and keeping them in the dark how strong my raise maybe and how much defense I have.

 

I will cue-bid with either less direction or more slam interest.

If I know what I want to play I usually bid that. Old fashioned but usually effective.

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Fluffy]

I play 2♠ natural and 3♠ cuebid, so I bid 3♠.

 

If LHO bids 4♠ next and it goes pass pass I double because that is insane bidding and they are vul, if RHO is the 4♠ bidder after partner's 4♥ I will make a forcing pass.

[Mbodell]

What would a XX be in this position? I don't play 2♥ as natural, so I don't have the explicit agreement that 2♠ is a cue, and think I would have XX planning to bid 4♥ at my next turn if I get the chance (and X 4♠ if I don't).

[Free]

2NT: INV+ with fit

[the hog]

IMO _P = 10, 2N (good raise) = 9, 2♠ = 8, 4♥ = 7.

Test to see if opponents know their agreements To avoid an adverse ruling try not to look worried when you pass the double. If vulnerable opponents sacrifice in 4♠, I'll cross that bridge when I come to it. :)

 

Rofl at the pass and the 10 points awarded to it. Find a good H raise and then double for heaven's sake.

[mtvesuvius]

Rofl at the pass and the 10 points awarded to it. Find a good H raise and then double for heaven's sake.

Amen.

[han]

Thank you for all the comments.

 

I bid 4H and doubled 4S, -790. Those that cue first will probably do better, partner will feel invited to act and you can escape for -300.

 

Without the double we play that 2S is a cue for hearts and 2NT is natural. After the double I think that 2S should be natural and 2NT should be a heart raise, with the balanced invite you can redouble.

[Zelandakh]

Playing the normal English defence to a Multi, partner isn't particularly limited - just the same range as an overcall over a natural weak two. Some people play that all hands with 16+ start with a double, in which case 2♥ is limited. However, playing either method I'd want to involve partner in the decision about what to do over 4♠.

 

On the next round, if I'd shown a limit raise or better, and one of the opponents bid 4♠, I'd double to say that I had more than what I'd already shown. Unless I could make a forcing pass, of course.

The "normal English defence to a multi" is Dixon where a 2H overcall is not natural but rather a (limited) take-out of spades with at least 4 hearts.