BPO 9 - Hand 5

[whereagles]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakj9hj9765da53c5&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1h]133|200[/hv]

 

RHO opens your long suit :) What now?

[han]

I passed. My guess is that 1S will work out well since wereagles used the hand.

[Phil]

1♠. Either your style allows overcalls on hands like this or it does not. Mine does, and I've had good results playing this way.

 

All of the factors are right for a four card overcall - good suit, length in RHO and a non-minimum.

[cherdano]

I don't think length in RHO's suit is a good feature for a four-card overcall. Of course, a length of 3 or 4 is almost automatic since otherwise we would make a takeout double. But a length of 5 means we have way too many losers to ruff (unless partner has heart shortness and a good fit, in which case he can make noise himself), and it also means we have more defense.

[Phil]

I don't think length in RHO's suit is a good feature for a four-card overcall. Of course, a length of 3 or 4 is almost automatic since otherwise we would make a takeout double. But a length of 5 means we have way too many losers to ruff (unless partner has heart shortness and a good fit, in which case he can make noise himself), and it also means we have more defense.

 

Maybe on a double dummy basis I would agree, but usually LHO is itching to lead his partner's suit with shortness, and in practice you don't get a trump lead when you are on a 4-3.

 

Another factor is the lead, and I also think Whereagles specified matchpoints, so getting the right lead is very important.

 

I've been playing this style for a long, long time, and I can tell you it works.

[cherdano]

You must get hands with 4=5 in the majors quite often over RHO's 1♥ opening!

[Fluffy]

I passed, with 4-4 I might overcall, but 5 cards in their suit is too bad ODR

[Phil]

You must get hands with 4=5 in the majors quite often over RHO's 1♥ opening!

 

No, not really. As I said before, there is criteria - good suit, decent hand, etc..

[JLOGIC]

You must get hands with 4=5 in the majors quite often over RHO's 1♥ opening!

 

lol

[Echognome]

I overcall 1♠ as well. It's not so much that I want to outcompete my opponents (although catching partner with some spades would be helpful), but it's that I really want a spade lead if we defend. This seems like our only opportunity to mention our good spades.

[mtvesuvius]

I agree 100% with everything Phil said here, and bid 1♠. It's worked really well, especially since you're ruffing in the short hand usually... Unless they lead trump, then you drop everything and RUN!

[cherdano]

Maybe I should spell out the point I made jokingly: 1♠ would be a much better overcall if our 5-card suit was in RHO's opened minor suit. If RHO has a 4-card suit, we have to ruff one time less to set up our 5-card suit! It would also mean we have less defense.

 

To say it differently: Playing in spades we have 5 heart losers, of which we can expect to ruff one, sometimes but rarely two (if partner can ruff more than one, then he would often be able to enter the auction by himself), sometimes none (LHO can overruff an pull trump). If they play somewhere, they have 2 heart losers, which they maybe can ruff, but often not (we pull trump, or partner can overruff).

Doesn't exactly sound like a hand where we want to play 4-3 fit, or a 4-4 a level higher than the law tells us to!

[Free]

I like the style where I can overcall 1♠.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakj9hj9765da53c5&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1h]133|200|RHO opens your long suit :) What now?[/hv]

IMO _P = 10, 1♠ = 8. Would Mike Lawrence overcall with this?

[Phil]

Maybe I should spell out the point I made jokingly: 1♠ would be a much better overcall if our 5-card suit was in RHO's opened minor suit. If RHO has a 4-card suit, we have to ruff one time less to set up our 5-card suit! It would also mean we have less defense.

 

To say it differently: Playing in spades we have 5 heart losers, of which we can expect to ruff one, sometimes but rarely two (if partner can ruff more than one, then he would often be able to enter the auction by himself), sometimes none (LHO can overruff an pull trump). If they play somewhere, they have 2 heart losers, which they maybe can ruff, but often not (we pull trump, or partner can overruff).

Doesn't exactly sound like a hand where we want to play 4-3 fit, or a 4-4 a level higher than the law tells us to!

 

I don't know who started using exclamation points like in this fashion, but it is getting rather tiresome. Does using an exclamation point help emphasize a point that cannot be made in other ways?

 

It would seem essential that we need to establish the 5th heart playing a high level spade contract but it is not critical in a partscore. Even if they cut down on our ruffs, we may later take heart tricks by force, or the heart pips may play a role in the endgame.

 

If we were 5-5 in the majors, I am quite sure you, me, and everyone else on the planet would overcall. Yet, our prospects of setting up our 5th heart are the same. Furthermore, even if our suit were a minor, we might get tapped out before this happens.

 

Are you really so sure that partner will be able to compete over their part score with four spades and a heart stiff? How about four spades and a heart doubleton? How about more? I think this is more problematic than you represent.

 

Passing ignores the lead benefits of bidding spades too. I think this is particularly big at matchpoints.

 

While I agree about the law implications of a 4-4 versus a 4-3 fit, the opponents must negotiate this as well, and bidding spades may get them to overcompete! (sorry couldn't resist).

[han]

If we were 5-5 in the majors, I am quite sure you, me, and everyone else on the planet would overcall. Yet, our prospects of setting up our 5th heart are the same.

 

Is there a point you wanted to make or are you just annoyed that cherdano used an exclamation point? What cherdano pointed out is that the 5th heart is a negative on offense, and a positive on defense. This is true, and would still be true if cherdano ended his sentences with semi-colons.

 

It will also be true when we have 5 spades, but you are right that with AKJxx J9xxx Ax x everybody would still overcall 1S. The fifth heart would be a negative, but it is a clear overcall. For example, if partner makes a mixed raise then they might not bid game (I think I still would) while they absolutely would bid game with with AKJxx x Ax J9xxx.

[Phil]

Is there a point you wanted to make or are you just annoyed that cherdano used an exclamation point? What cherdano pointed out is that the 5th heart is a negative on offense, and a positive on defense. This is true, and would still be true if cherdano ended his sentences with semi-colons.

 

My point is having a 5th heart has nothing to do with the merits of a four card overcall;

 

(I guess this means that I am not through with this discussion :))

[y66]

IMO _P = 10, 1♠ = 8. Would Mike Lawrence overcall with this?

I would bet a lot that Mike would overcall 1S here.

[gnasher]

I don't know who started using exclamation points like in this fashion

Somebody in the 15th Century?

[mike777]

1s but pass is certainly acceptable.

[aguahombre]

1s but pass is certainly acceptable.

 

Perfect answer for a normal forum poll/discussion. I agree. It is simply a matter of style. I suspect one choice or the other worked out a whole lot better this time, with real matchpoint results. As many have said before, a particular action's success or failure on a particular hand is not proof of anything. Anxious to see how big the disaster was after my 1S overcall this time.

[Free]

1s but pass is certainly acceptable.

Perfect answer for a normal forum poll/discussion. I agree. It is simply a matter of style. I suspect one choice or the other worked out a whole lot better this time, with real matchpoint results. As many have said before, a particular action's success or failure on a particular hand is not proof of anything. Anxious to see how big the disaster was after my 1S overcall this time.

This isn't a classic poll or discussion, it's a darts game where whereagles tells us afterwards which square gets which amount of points. B)

[whereagles]

Full hand:

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sakj9hj9765da53c5&w=sqt62h84dq7cqjt94&n=s854htdkt842ca632&e=s73hakq32dj96ck87&d=e&v=0&b=14&a=1h]399|300[/hv]

 

This one is more of a judgement issue than a style one, I think. The long hearts make it likely pard has some spade support and we'll be ruffing in the short hand. All that, plus the lead indicator, makes 1♠ an attactive bid, despite the 4 card suit.

 

In practice overcalling will lead to either 2♠ by NS, making, or pushing EW to a 3-level contract that goes down. In either case the overcall makes you go plus, so it gets the higher score.

[han]

edited

[cherdano]

Meanwhile, I neither understand why passing leads to a minus score, nor why bidding leads to a plus score.

If the auction goes 1H 1S 1N, then either a spade lead and diamond switch, or a diamond lead, means that we get 7 tricks before they do.

On the other hand, how exactly are we going to make 2♠? Say a heart lead and a trump switch. Whenever you duck a diamond, they will play a club.