What is the correct thing to do?

[doofik]

I guess this is becoming my pet peeve, considering the penalties, and I'd like to find out what to do.

 

This morning I entered a tourney - 15 bds 5 rounds clocked. In fact, it had something about quick in the title. Each round was to take 24 minutes. The rounds went on and on and on, sort of like the Energizer Bunny. In one round the time ran out and the clock went negative.

 

Now my question is this:

 

- how unreasonable is it for players to expect tourneys to begin on time and to be ran in a timely fashion?

 

- if the tourney drags on, what are my options? I'm aware of a ban when leaving a tourney of own free will. And if I don't want to be banned from BBO, do I become a prisoner of the host?

 

Please advise as I'm considering quitting playing any tourneys. They don't begin on time and they certainly don't end in a reasonable time.

 

With best regards,

Jola

[inquiry]

Jola,

 

You have hit one of my pet peeve's. I have complained about tournment directors extending the time both publically (see, for instance, http://bridgebase.lunarpages.com/~bridge2/...indpost&p=14518 ), and privately (to the directors and to groups of yellows).

 

The problem seems clear. As you point out, we have automatic punishments in place for people who quit too many tournmnets before they are finiished (software figures this out). If you know, for instance you have to leave at 5PM, and a tourment starts at 3PM, you can multiple the number of boards by the time per hand and figure out if you can play. I ahve seen tournment directors delay the start to "wait for another tournment to finiish", or to "get one more full table", so the 3PM start is delayed 5, 10 or more minutes. Then, I have seen the director add two full minutes to the average round, and sometimes as much as 6 minutes to an individual round. This is a nightmare for those who took the time issue as important. The directors will tell you that if the bbo has connectionproblem, they need to add time, for the good of all thosw who kept losing connections. But, and this is important, it does you, the time pressured person little good. So my advice is don't play in tourments without a VERY comfortable time zone on the other side, or only play in ones where the directors are known to never add time. And directos, consider poor jola and me as you freely add time round after round.

 

Ben

[doofik]

Ben,

 

I'd appreciate very much recommendations of directors who value our time. I'll become their slave:-) if such is needed:-)

 

Jola

[doofik]

One more idea occurred to me and that is that as the software tracks who logs off from a tourney, perhaps there could be software that tracks who delays tourneys? Or perhaps directors could get some kind of a word that this or that player registered for a tourney and he/she has been disconnected x number of times per tourney.

 

I really don't know what the answer is but I know that my time is as valuable as Ben's and others and that it is not unreasonable to have an expectation of a tourney's duration.

 

Being forced to abandon playing tournaments is not my idea of fun. So perhaps others will come up with a solution? Yes, I'm lucky, my connection is perfect 99% of the time.

 

Jola

[luke warm]

from what i've seen, tourneys delay because either the host/director feels not enough players are signed up OR that some of the "right" players have requested a few more minutes

 

as far as a round taking too long (or longer than advertised), i can *barely* see the necessity on the last board, sometimes on the first board, never on the ones in between

 

there is no way to stop this, short of bbo implementing some sort of rule against it, except for tds to decide to start their tourneys *exactly* when they say they're to start, and letting each board go *exactly* the correct time... this won't work unless all tds do it, and i can't see it happening... too much politics

 

btw, it's one of my pet peeves also, especially the ones that are supposed to start at a certain time and they keep adding 2 minutes to the start... very irritating

[jtfanclub]

from what i've seen, tourneys delay because either the host/director feels not enough players are signed up OR that some of the "right" players have requested a few more minutes.

I don't time my tourneys by the clock- I time them based on about ten to fifteen minutes after some other tourney's going to be done. If the other tourney is done in time, wonderful. If it runs ten minutes late, still fine. If it runs fifteen, I start bumping my tourney back. Even if they don't sign up for my tourney, they're going to end up being my subs, so it's well worth it to wait an extra few minutes.

 

IMHO, speed tourneys are fine, in very limited quantities. Outside of that, you may as well put up a sign in BBO saying "Third world players need not apply". These are almost all connection issues. It's not fair to a majority of the world to run mostly speed tourneys.

[inquiry]

from what i've seen, tourneys delay because either the host/director feels not enough players are signed up OR that some of the "right" players have requested a few more minutes.

I don't time my tourneys by the clock- I time them based on about ten to fifteen minutes after some other tourney's going to be done. If the other tourney is done in time, wonderful. If it runs ten minutes late, still fine. If it runs fifteen, I start bumping my tourney back. Even if they don't sign up for my tourney, they're going to end up being my subs, so it's well worth it to wait an extra few minutes.

 

IMHO, speed tourneys are fine, in very limited quantities. Outside of that, you may as well put up a sign in BBO saying "Third world players need not apply". These are almost all connection issues. It's not fair to a majority of the world to run mostly speed tourneys.

I think you misunderstand the concern, paul. We are not asking for SPEED tourments. What we (jola, jimmy and me) are talking about is playing to the announced time. Let' s say you run a tourney that has 12 - 8 minute rounds, starting at 1:15 PM. We can all do the math. 12x8 = 96 mintutes. The tourney should be over at 2:51 PM. If you had something you had to do at 3 PM, this would be comfortable, so you sign up. The director delays 5 minutes (to wait for some reason), time is now pushed to 2:56, not so comfortable. Director adds two mintues to first round (to allow explainations), it is now 2:58. Director then decides in round 3 and 4, 2 mintues and 3 mintues because there is a lot of poor connections out there, end time is now pushed to 3:03 and you still have 8 more rounds the director might adjust.

 

This is what we complain about. We would like a contract with the directors of our tournments. Tell us when you start, and how long the rounds will be. I am willing to take +/- a few minutes.. maybe adding time to first round (1 or 2 mintues for explainations), and you can do what you want to last round (I will finish and be gone)... but don't keep adding time here and there.

 

Now, you will argue perhpas that you add time for the people with slow connections in third world. Not a problem say your rounds are 10 minutes if you want... if people play faster, rounds will be shorter of course, be then we can still estimate the time. BTW, if you play 10 minutes per board, many, including me will not play in your events, but at least I would admire you honesty up front.

 

Ben

[jtfanclub]

I think you misunderstand the concern, paul. We are not asking for SPEED tourments. What we (jola, jimmy and me) are talking about is playing to the announced time. Let' s say you run a tourney that has 12 - 8 minute rounds, starting at 1:15 PM. We can all do the math. 12x8 = 96 mintutes.

Hi, I'm Matthew.

 

I run 16 boards, and when I create the tourney I put in 6 minutes per board. Time-96 minutes. If you read the description (not the tourney rules, the box when you click on the tourney), you'll see that it clearly states 6-7 minutes per board. If it's seven, then time=112 minutes. The name of this tournament? Two Hour Tourney. Because in total, it can take almost two hours, including any delays for start. If you thought it was going to take 96 minutes, well, don't say I didn't warn you.

 

So why do I put the clock at six minutes, instead of 7? Two reasons. One is, I don't want people starting boards with four minutes to go in the round, which is what the system defaults to. If I make it 6 minutes and then change it to 7 at the last second each round, then people who get to the fourth board have a minimum of 7 minutes to play it, which should be plenty of time. Minimal rushing, minimal adjustments, minimal chances for slow play.

 

The other is, you give some people an inch, and they'll take a yard. If they're starting the last board and it shows ten minutes to go, they'll sit and yak about previous boards, take phone calls, go to the bathroom, or whatever. Then when their opponents have connection issues during the last board, guess what gets screamed about? Besides, if everybody else is done after 26 minutes, why do we have to wait for the yakkers to finish because they took two minutes in the middle? If I make it 6 minutes per board, people feel some urgency to get the boards done. Even though it says in the description that I'll pump it to 7 minutes. Even though it says in the tourney rules that I'll move it to 7 minutes. Even though I make an announcement about it at the beginning of the tourney, doesn't matter. You see the clock has five minutes to go going into the last board, you don't yak on the phone for three of them.

 

When I direct 6 minute/board tourneys, almost everybody finishes in 7...I may add a minute to get the adjustments in before I have to go hunting for the hands, but that's it. When I direct 7, they take 8. This isn't the people with connection issues- this is a majority of the pairs. The ones with connection issues just finish three boards, and get an A= on the last board without looking at it. It ain't great, but it's better than what they'd get most places.

 

I'm looking at a tournament right now. I don't see anything in there that shows the minutes per round. So maybe the issue isn't how many minutes are in the round, it's how many minutes we *say in the description* there is per round, which I deliberately leave out when it's a semi-clocked tourney (like one I had yesterday). I don't know how or if you can see what we actually have it set for, but I am assuming when I create the tourney that you cannot.

[Allegro]

I volunteered to play as a sub in exactly ONE tourney and will never do it again. The rounds were 22 minutes long with 2 boards per round. Result was, we finished in 7-8 minutes and I read a few chapters in a novel while the minutes ticked on. The other result was that I had to stay at the computer for 88 minutes, an outrageous amount of time for a total of 8 boards.

 

I have been playing bridge on BBO for several months and except for that one time as a sub, I have not played in a tourney primarily because I don't want to have to sit in front of my computer for 2-3 hours to play far fewer boards than I can play at a regular table. The messages above only validate my reluctance to participate.

[jtfanclub]

It would be really nice if the sub request included the rounds remaining and minutes per round.

[xx1943]

Hi Jola, hi Ben.

 

You are 100% rite. TD (like everyone) should do, what they announce.

But please don't be dogmatic.

 

I host **Very Quick and Nice** 4*3 boards 6min/per board. Last round more time if necessary. I never change the starting time. But in very rare situations I have to add time for a specific round. But my tourney never lasted more than 75 minutes.

 

There is videlicet a little problem. I announce too, that I'll adjust all not finished boards. I host only 20 tables per one TD. Sometimes there are 3 difficult boards or many disconnections due to server problems and more than half of the tables are not finished. In this case I must add time.

 

I would like to add 1 minute for the ROUND. But there is another problem, which is discussed here many times. I want to add 1 minute per round not per board. But this is not possible in the actual software interface.

 

Perhaps this change will be possible in the next version.

 

Regards

 

Al

[bearmum]

It would be really nice if the sub request included the rounds remaining and minutes per round.

I agree -occasionally i could play for 30 mins or so - but have NO way of knowing approx how much time remaining in T :)

[luke warm]

i didn't see any of the hosts explain why they continually push back the starting time... this is the most irritating part of the procedure to me... if they'd all just start on time, pretty soon the players would know to show up...

[doofik]

Al:-)

 

That's where I want to play "Nice and Quick".

 

While acknowledging the problem and my frustration, I'm not sure what the answer is. Most certainly pushing back the start time is my greatest peeve because it's just plain inconsiderate of those who are there ready to start.

 

Perhaps it would make sense to run smaller tourneys where the round ends on time and whatever adjustments there need to be made would be lesser in numbers?

 

Just thinking out loud,

 

Jola

[jtfanclub]

i didn't see any of the hosts explain why they continually push back the starting time... this is the most irritating part of the procedure to me... if they'd all just start on time, pretty soon the players would know to show up...

I thought I did...it's to wait for another tourney to finish.

 

Maybe I don't count.

[doofik]

JT,

 

And that's exactly my complaint. If you post the start of your tourney then stick to it. While you're waiting for another tourney to end, my time is being wasted.

 

So let me ask you, don't I count?

 

Jola

[jtfanclub]

JT,

 

And that's exactly my complaint. If you post the start of your tourney then stick to it. While you're waiting for another tourney to end, my time is being wasted.

 

So let me ask you, don't I count?

 

Jola

Let me see...your waiting for five minutes...vs. 20 or 30 people who won't be able to play at all.

 

Don't they count?

 

If a few minute delay means you can't finish the tournament, don't start it.

[doofik]

JT,

 

In that case I'd suggest that you take other tourneys into consideration before posting the start time of your tourney. Once registered I'd hate to disappoint my partner. But more than that, I won't allow you to be in control of my time.

 

Jola

[mink]

I can only think of one valid reason to delay the start of a tourney: Many BBO users encounter connection problems short before the tourney is scheduled to start. Waiting for another tourney to finish is no valid reason for me.

 

About extra time for a round: I do this only if too many tables are still playing 30 seconds before the normal end of the round. If I didn't I probably would not have enough time to do the adjusting. (I hate to leave a Ave-, most time this is a good result for the pair that caused the delay.) Often, when I give extra time, only few seconds of it are really needed, and the software performs the round swich when the last table is ready. And - if there is only one table still playing in extra time, I try to adjust while they are still playing, finishing the round this way.

 

Karl

[inquiry]

JT,

 

And that's exactly my complaint.  If you post the start of your tourney then stick to it.  While you're waiting for another tourney to end, my time is being wasted. 

 

So let me ask you, don't I count?

 

Jola

Let me see...your waiting for five minutes...vs. 20 or 30 people who won't be able to play at all.

 

Don't they count?

 

If a few minute delay means you can't finish the tournament, don't start it.

Before this gets out of hand (so far it is not, but close)... I think we can agree, jola, don't play in jtfan's tourney's cause he is likley to extend the start time. JT, do you really get 20 or 30 players from a tourney that just finished immediately joining yours? I guess I find that surprising, but ok.

 

I happen to fall into the group that believe the tournment conditions are a contract between the director and players. When a time to start is listed, I would like to see that time retained. None of us (even jola) will freak out over 2 minutes added to start time, but all too often it is a sequence of 2 minutes, and 3 minutes and 5 minutes.. it is not unusual for directors who do this to edn up starting 10 or 15 mintues after the announced starting time.. .

 

And JT.... it is very interesting why you say you have to wait to start your tourney.. you say you schedule yours 10 or 15 mintues after some other one is suppose to be finished.. then IF THEY RUN LONG, you start bumping yours back. How wonderful it woudl be if they didn't run long (the point of this thread), so that you didn't have to bump yours back. I think your need to bump, shows that the problem very nicely. If TD enforced the time they announce, or hold it to no more than say 6 mintues longer than announced (extra tme at beginning and end or the extremely infrequent middle rounds when huge numbers have connection problems), this would be a non-issue.

 

Ben

[jtfanclub]

When it's Deer Pard or Fun Fishy? Sure.

 

And JT.... it is very interesting why you say you have to wait to start your tourney.. you say you schedule  yours 10 or 15 mintues after some other one is suppose to be finished.. then IF THEY RUN LONG, you start bumping yours back.

 

It's always the last round...it has to be. I don't set up my tourneys with more than about 40 minutes before game time. So what happens is that directors turn off the clock for the last round, and there's 125 people (or more) watching the last few people finish the last round (which can take a VERY long time on rare occassions). So when they finally finish, these 125 people look at their results and then a goodly number of them see what else is out there. If I started a minute ago, too bad for them.

[spwdo]

Dont delay tourneys, soo frustrating and when ppl start with a bad feeling that will result in bad atmosphered tourneys, nobody benefits, at least have courtesy to state it in your conditions of contest that u will delay in order to have a table more or less.

 

 

When i held my bridge too far, i posted it at 12.30 edt, and 30 minutes before messages start to come in, please delay 5 minutes, we playing this and that.Its always the same story so one knows in front, then i delayed 5 minutes and thats it.

 

I seen many tourneys delaying , delaying, delaying in order to get recordtables resulting in more then usual subs needed, so what can be the benefit?

 

Some pppl dont participate in unclocked tourneys given the fact they dodnt know when its going to end so therefore dont make clocked unclocked with ongoing delays, timemodifications.

 

Marc

[TimG]

I think one solution is from the software side. In most tournament movements, there is no need for everyone to wait when a small number of tables are behind. In a face-to-face tournament when a table is late, the round is still called, those who move can, and those who can't wait. Players tend to catch up, though there are certainly cases of habitually slow players who are unable to catch up. It may be a pain to program at the start, but it doesn't seem like it should be so difficult to preclude the same thing from happening in an online environment.

 

Actually, the online environment would be ideal for this. The software could track how often a player (or pair) is late and assign something of an ontime rating. Then a tournament director could restrict entry to players with a certain ontime percentage in an effort to have a speedy tournament. Of course, this would be optional.

 

Tim

 

PS 24 minutes is way too much for a three board round.

[luke warm]

jt's attitude shows exactly why this problem won't be solved... it's obvious that he sees absolutely nothing wrong with moving the start time... to others of us, this is the exact reason we don't play in some tourneys... it IS important, especially if one is on a schedule of sorts

[jtfanclub]

jt's attitude shows exactly why this problem won't be solved... it's obvious that he sees absolutely nothing wrong with moving the start time... to others of us, this is the exact reason we don't play in some tourneys... it IS important, especially if one is on a schedule of sorts

You're absolutely right.

 

It IS very important, especially when one is on a schedule.

 

When you see a Two Hour Tourney set up to start at 6:30, it will be over before 8:30. If I start five minutes late, it will still be over by 8:30. If I throw some extra time in during a round, it will still be over by 8:30. When you sign up for a Two Hour Tourney, you are signing up for two hours. Not how long you think a 16 board tourney should take, or whatever you get by multiplying X by Z. Two hours, from the moment of scheduled start.

 

The problem isn't that I'm taking longer than scheduled. The problem is that people decide that my tourney should take as long as they think it should take, using some arbitrary number. If you think my tourney should take 96 minutes, and I start 5 minutes late and take extra time on the first round and it takes 112 minutes, tough. You were warned how long the tourney can take. My opinion of people who join the tourney anyways and are shocked...shocked when a tourney takes as long as it says it's going to take is not very high. And then they quit at the start of the last round and slow things down for the rest of the people as I scramble for subs.

 

If you can't stay, don't play.

 

I feel there's nothing to apologize for in that.