Am I allowed to bid?

[kruba]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakqt92ha54d75c74&w=shkq9872dakq83ct5&n=sj8753ht63dj4caqj&e=s64hjdt962ck98632&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1hpp1s2d3dp4spp5dpp5sppp]399|300[/hv]

 

3D was alerted. (good raise to 3S.) West hesitated for some time after the 4S bid,

before passing. Before bidding 5D, East asked if he was "allowed to bid".

North/South said yes, if he had his bid, but they may call the director.

North/South reserved their rights. The hesitation was agreed. 5S went 1 off.

Director's ruling? What do you think of North's 5S bid?

[blackshoe]

It looks to me like 5♦ violates Laws 16A and B and 73C, so I would adjust back to some percentage of 4♠ making, 4♠-1, and maybe 4♠-2, all of which look like possible outcomes. Maybe 70, 20 and 10%.

 

I don't think 5♠ is SEWoG, if that's what you're getting at.

[iviehoff]

Not a very good idea to ask the opponents if you are allowed to bid. And an even worse idea to answer the question, except along the lines of "you had better consult the director if you want a statement of law". I'm tempted to say to NS "you told him he could bid if he had his bid, so I'm going to make you stick to your home-made ruling, and since it could be said he had his bid, as you described it, I'm not going to adjust. See Law 9C (premature correction of an irregularity)."

[RMB1]

I agree that it does seem "dirty" to say "yes you can bid" and then call the TD when they do. I think the opponents should call the TD, even a playing TD, and get the TD to explain to East his rights and restrictions.

[paulg]

My reading of the post is quite a lot friendlier to NS than others. At so many clubs the more experienced players tend to bully people in this situation but here NS have explained that East may call if warranted but they may call the director and they reserved their rights. I know that they should call the TD but very often the playing TD has no real understanding of these laws and the last thing that anyone wants to do is call him. For a change this all seems to have happened without rancour.

 

Of course East's bid of 5♦ cannot be allowed. It would not occur to East to bid if West has passed smoothly.

[mycroft]

Okay, count me odd. Partner shows a huge red hand (bidding freely opposite a 0-5), opponents have voluntarily bid game, partner didn't double, and unless partner has the HA and I can convince him to lead it, I have little or no defence, partner's diamond tricks might be going away (ok, this time the red suits break, but how often is that going to happen?), and I have 4 card support for his suits, and a huge offensive hand (for my 0-5)?

 

I'd be bidding 5D without thinking. It seems highly unlikely to be a phantom (except it is on this hand, except they managed not to take their 4 tricks - I guess the play managed to block East from West's hand (double-dummy, E-W can take 5 tricks, but who's going to underlead HKQ?)), and it seems highly unlikely that we're going for a number.

 

I'd be willing to consider pass, but I'd never do it.

[nigel_k]

Of course East's bid of 5♦ cannot be allowed. It would not occur to East to bid if West has passed smoothly.

I completely disagree with this. West is not bidding 2♦ just to hear the sound of his own voice. He needs a hand good enough to expect to sometimes outbid the opponents on strength or have a sacrifice. Opposite a partner who cannot respond to one of a suit this must be a pretty good hand. For me this is a clear 5♦. Partner's spade void is nice but they have the worst possible heart holding and the opponents also have mirrored red suits and we are still right to bid.

 

I don't know what East was thinking when he passed 3♦ but he has a monster in the context of the auction and I don't think you can infer he thought his hand not worth 4♦ when their bid is forcing. Some people just think it's clever to pass and bid later with strong hands. Since obviously there are some good players out there who consider pass of 4♠ a logical alternative I suppose you would need a poll. But if you polled me I'd say I wouldn't seriously consider passing.

[Phil]

I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that EW are not very experienced.

 

The Director needs to ask peers of the East player what they would do. This isn't a bidding problem, its a ruling.

[paulg]

I completely disagree with this. West is not bidding 2♦ just to hear the sound of his own voice. He needs a hand good enough to expect to sometimes outbid the opponents on strength or have a sacrifice. Opposite a partner who cannot respond to one of a suit this must be a pretty good hand. For me this is a clear 5♦. Partner's spade void is nice but they have the worst possible heart holding and the opponents also have mirrored red suits and we are still right to bid.

I concede that it is dependent on the players involved, but my experience of British clubs is that most Wests will only hold such a monster hand one time in ten - the rest of the time they are just bidding to find a fit because they have paid their table money and bidding is fun. Perhaps I've been running clubs with a reasonable influx of novices for too long :)

[hotShot]

I need to know more about EW before I make a decision.

Ever heard:

3♦ showed a good rise to 3♠ no need for me to think about a sacrifice if opps don't bid game.

But over 4♠ the sacrifice was obvious!

[iviehoff]

West's hand is clearly rather stronger than East can reasonably expect. But then East would have accepted less, he wasn't bidding 5D to make.

 

And what do I think of the 5S bid? Perfect, evidently. The par contract, a good save against 5D. Many players would take S's pass of 5D as forcing, in which case N was left with a tricky choice.

 

We'd need a poll to be sure whether pass is a LA for East, though I expect it is. But I still think we should apply NS's more generous criterion of "having your bid", and it is clear from the above comments he does. So no adjustment from me.

[lamford]

My reading of the post is quite a lot friendlier to NS than others. At so many clubs the more experienced players tend to bully people in this situation but here NS have explained that East may call if warranted but they may call the director and they reserved their rights. I know that they should call the TD but very often the playing TD has no real understanding of these laws and the last thing that anyone wants to do is call him. For a change this all seems to have happened without rancour.

 

Of course East's bid of 5♦ cannot be allowed. It would not occur to East to bid if West has passed smoothly.

As often, your view is the most balanced and most accurate one. The incident occurred at my club, although I only heard about it a bit later; there is a playing director, and North-South were indeed trying to be helpful. The director did rule the result back to 4S making. East-West were not inexperienced, but average around 45% in the club duplicate, North-South more like 55%.

 

East could have bid 4D on his last turn if he had wanted to support diamonds. I think that pass (of 4S) would be a logical alternative for the player in question, who would not have reasoned that his partner's 2D showed this good a hand. The BIT at the end could subconsciously jolt East into thinking "perhaps I had better take some action here - I haven't shown this diamond support yet".