How do I learn Precision?

[ArcLight]

I would like to learn Precision. On www.amazon.com I found 2 books:

 

Precision Today: Your Guide To Learning The System by David Berkowitz

 

Precision in the 90s by Barry Rigal

 

Are either of these any good?

 

Are there some websites that list all the rules of Precision? www.BridgeGuys.com has some versions.

[hrothgar]

Personally, I always liked Jannerstein.

 

Rigal's book is pretty good, with the exception of the section on relay bididng which is almost incomprehensible.

[pclayton]

I would like to learn Precision.  On www.amazon.com I found 2 books:

 

Precision Today: Your Guide To Learning The System  by David Berkowitz

 

Precision in the 90s by Barry Rigal

 

Are either of these any good?

 

Are there some websites that list all the rules of Precision?  www.BridgeGuys.com has some versions.

Rigal spends about the last 1/2 of the book touting an esoteric system. The first half of the book is very good.

 

Manley / Berkowitz is exceptional and gives you a lot of the newer ideas in strong club. I play about 90% of it myself.

[jtfanclub]

The CC Wei book "The Precision bidding system in bridge" is very short, and very simple. I would suggest reading it first, so you have a good feeling for Precision, and then pick up a more complex book like the ones mentioned to learn what you're actually going to play. Besides, anybody you play precision with may not have read those other books, but he's read the Wei, so you have a point of reference.

 

It'll be tough to buy, since it was written in '69, but your local library should have little trouble getting it for you.

[JanTucson]

I was able to obtain a used copy of CC Wei's "Precision Bidding in Bridge" from Dot Lewis. She deals in out-of-print bridge books and can be reached by e-mailing elewis222@earthlink.net. Her address is 3338 Hemlock Dr., Falls Church VA 22041. Edited August 30, 2004 by JanTucson

[sceptic]

OliverC does lessons in the BIL (beginners intermedaite lounge at least once a week, try there

[Robertn]

Oliver's website at http://pigpen.org.uk/BBO explains the system he teaches in detail. Apart from the asking bid sequences and a couple of optional gadgets, I think the rest is basically classic (CC Wei style) precision. The lessons are at 1500EDT/2000BST/2100CET on Saturdays,

 

Robert

[ArcLight]

Thank you all for your responses.

 

 

This is a more biased question but what are the strengths and weaknesses of Precision vs. 2/1,SAYC, ACOL. In short, why use Precision over other systems?

Is it easier to learn? Or more effective? Some say its too revealing and helps the opponents defense.

 

It seems that many strong players use Precision and I'd like to "know what all the enthusiasm" is about. (I dont make any claims that Precision is or is not a good system, not do I make any claims that other systems are better or worse)

[helene_t]

Personally I like CC Wei's Simplified Precision better than the other book of him mentioned. It is strictly for beginners, though.

 

I like Keylime's website too but it is not something you can read through in the lunchbreak.

[flytoox]

I think Berkowitz's book is a bit too concise, and Rigal's book has many gardget but didnt spend much on basic problem. I think CC Wei's book is still best, though need some modification if possible. As far as I know, there is a Chinese precision by a taiwan player, guo zhehong. This is by far the best book on precision in my opinion, Not sure if it has english version though.

[Free]

Thank you all for your responses.

 

 

This is a more biased question but what are the strengths and weaknesses of Precision vs. 2/1,SAYC, ACOL. In short, why use Precision over other systems?

Is it easier to learn? Or more effective? Some say its too revealing and helps the opponents defense.

 

It seems that many strong players use Precision and I'd like to "know what all the enthusiasm" is about. (I dont make any claims that Precision is or is not a good system, not do I make any claims that other systems are better or worse)

I don't play pure precision, but other strong ♣ systems which are comparable imo.

 

The biggest strength of precision systems opposite natural systems are the limited opening bids, and the pure weak 2-level and higher bids. The limited opening bids use either 2/1 or some relay bid to investigate. Personally I like 1 relaybid, and other natural NF => huge advantage opposite natural. Limited openings also help partner to preempt, or place the contract really quick. Say you have around 12HCP, and your p opens 1M, you know slam is probably not possible, so you can easily bid 4M, not showing anything extra (except support) about both hands.

1♣ against opponents who are quiet can also be really good.

In a full relay system, slam bidding is more accurate. There's no natural system which can ask for exact shape and exact placements of top honours the way precision systems can.

 

I also noticed that playing precision systems lets you bid very relaxed. You know your partner won't go anywhere crazy, so you can basicly do whatever you want. Ranges 11-15 opposite 11-19(20) in natural systems is a huge difference. Responder usually knows the limit of the hand a lot quicker.

 

Disadvantages: 1♣ opening against good opponents (they will interfere like hell :) ), and the nebolous 1♦, because both openings don't tell much about the hand. Basicly, when you get intervention over any of these bids, you're not well placed for partscore battle.

[mycroft]

As Free says, the main strength of any strong-club system is the limited nature of all the other openers (and that's why 1D is such a pain, because, while the strength is limited, the shape is not, and it comes up a lot).

 

It is so freeing to know who's captain in an auction. Remember all the hands where you get two rounds in and are trying to find a forcing bid, because you still don't know if you're game or slam-range, and partner doesn't either? Or all the hands where you wonder "can I pass this?" or "should I pass this?"

 

That happens much less in Precision than in standard systems; either opener bids 1C and is (almost always, basically unless he shows a limited balanced hand) captain, or he bids something else, and responder is captain. Non-captain can with the right kind of hand overrule (usually much extra strength over 1C, or really wildly distributional 1M openings), but it's rare.

 

Because opener is so much more limited (and potentially weaker) when he does not open 1C, responder can "preempt to max level" a lot more than in standard, and now it's *responder* who is ambiguous. Free brought up the classic auction - 1S-4S. Maybe responder has KQxxx, a singleton and out, just like everybody else; maybe she has Qxx trump support and a 3424 13-count. Either way, the opponents can get burned - pass, and they find they can make game anywhere (even slam sometimes, if spades break 3-0!); bid and it's *them* playing the 15-count doubled at the 5 level with no real fit.

 

But also useful, and more common, are auctions like 1S-X-3S; 1S-2C-3D (D/S in competition); 2C-p-3C; 2D-p-3S; and there are many more. Opener will pass (or correct to suit), and you can do it on much stronger hands than in standard without fear of missing game.

 

Downsides - the more unilateral nature of Precision basically requires a fair bit of artificiality (especially over 2C or 2D, where there isn't much room to investigate if responder has a big hand) so that the captain can reasonably make decisions. And 1C auctions just have to be memorized. And they *will* interfere in 1C auctions, even when they shouldn't (and in jurisdictions like the ACBL, the normal restrictions on defensive conventions don't apply, so you will get lots of *different* interference methods), so you have to have a good, sound, comprehensive (and by it's nature, fairly artificial, or at least memory-heavy) defence. Oh, and nobody plays the same version of Precision, and the differences are not the ones you've learned to look out for playing Standard. And 1D really feels like you're back in the bad old "who knows what partner has" world.

 

Michael.

[jtfanclub]

Thank you all for your responses.

 

 

This is a more biased question but what are the strengths and weaknesses of Precision vs. 2/1,SAYC, ACOL. In short, why use Precision over other systems?

Is it easier to learn? Or more effective? Some say its too revealing and helps the opponents defense.

 

It seems that many strong players use Precision and I'd like to "know what all the enthusiasm" is about. (I dont make any claims that Precision is or is not a good system, not do I make any claims that other systems are better or worse)

I play a Precision in which 1D promises 4, which takes care of the "what does your partner have" issue. In Wei precision,if you assume partner has 4 diamonds, you'll very rarely be wrong.

 

The biggest advantage over SAYC is that it's much easier to find slam. The biggest advantage over 2/1 is the ability to find game. SAYC, because of its inability to force game, makes it tough to cue-bid for slam. 2/1, because most bids are game forcing, makes it tough to find close games.

 

One thing that Precision has over both of them is the ability to *stop*. With properly played Precision, you almost always stop in 1NT, 2 of a major, 3 of a minor, or game or slam. The rare times you end up at 3 of a major, it's because you pre-empted to that level, not because you thought you had game and changed your mind at the last moment. Compare that to, say, Bergen raises, where ending up at 3 of a major with almost enough for game is commonplace.

 

With a regular partner, I find Precision much easier to play and more relaxing than SAYC or 2/1. Outside of pickup partners, I don't know why people tend to play nearly unlimited 1M openings.

[keylime]

As a Precision guru, there's three things that are must haves for Precisioneers.

 

1. Good countermeasures over when they decide to bid over the 1♣. It happens, it happens a lot, and you better have your ducks in a row. Knowing strong club defenses allow for a good offense.

 

2. The response schedule in std Precision to the 2♣ opening. Trash it, and migrate to something more clear like the Cohen-Berkowitz structure.

 

3. How to uncover more information after a 1♣-2 of a minor GF.

[keylime]

Speaking of defenses over a strong club, almost forgot---there is a movement afoot from the ACBL about regulation of these items for the GCC (General Convention Chart). Any thoughts?

[jtfanclub]

Speaking of defenses over a strong club, almost forgot---there is a movement afoot from the ACBL about regulation of these items for the GCC (General Convention Chart). Any thoughts?

Yeah. As long as shape is defined, I'm all for it- if it shows a suit, or shows a balanced hand, or whatever. What I can't stand are pseudoferts. They show 13 cards- unless you know what the other bids they could have made meant. Then they show a whole lot more than that.

[the hog]

"They show 13 cards- unless you know what the other bids they could have made meant."

 

Tough luck! Destructive overcalls showing 13 cards are totally reasonable imo. You play the big C system you should be able to cope with any defence. You can always ask what their other bids would have meant. (And before you start, I am a fan of big C).

[jtfanclub]

Tough luck! Destructive overcalls showing 13 cards are totally reasonable imo. You play the big C system you should be able to cope with any defence. You can always ask what their other bids would have meant. (And before you start, I am a fan of big C).

So. I open 2C. You ask me what it means. Instead of telling you that it means 11-15 hcp 6+ clubs or 5 clubs and a 4 card major, I tell you that it means I have 13 cards. You ask me what all the other bids mean, and sure enough, if you write them down and cross out all the other possiblities, all that's left is the 11-15 hcp, 5++ clubs explanation.

 

Do you think that was fair?

 

Suppose that your pass shows 12+, so your fert actually shows only 0-11 hcp hands. Your partner knows that, your opponents don't. You describe your fert as 13 cards, no point range. You don't see anything wrong with that?

 

 

When asked for a description, said description should be complete. If I ever caught somebody playing Precision saying that 1H promises 5 hearts and nothing about HCP because, hey, they didn't ask what a 1C would have meant, I'll finally have to start locking my tourneys.

 

Every bid shows 13 cards. The important question is what differentiates the fert from the other bids you could have made. Concealing that information is illegal.

[OliverC]

Personally, I always liked Jannerstein.

 

Rigal's book is pretty good, with the exception of the section on relay bididng which is almost incomprehensible.

Hi All,

 

Yes, I like Jannerstern's book on Precision too. I have read Rigal's butprefer to use relays only in some specific circumstances rather than making theman integral part of the system (Am quite attracted by Moskito, tho, for some perverse reason).

 

Regards,

Oliver

(OliverC)

[the hog]

JT you have missed the point again. If 1H is a random overcall then it is a random overcall. If it has a specific meaning then that specific meaning needs to be divulged. When we played 1H = 13 cards pd the overcaller could literally have anything. I don't know why you describe the bid as a fert, because that does have a specified point range.

Destructive methods against a big C work well as your side is unlikely to have game.

[jtfanclub]

JT you have missed the point again. If 1H is a random overcall then it is a random overcall. If it has a specific meaning then that specific meaning needs to be divulged.

I understand that...that's why I distinguished between a fert- a bid required by the system, and a pseudofert, a bid which actually has meaning (even if to deny certain holdings) but is described the same way.

[nige1]

I regularly consult Precision in the 90s by Barry Rigal (although I find the terce Symmetic Relay section too hard to understand). I also recommend the succinct and stylish Precisison Bidding and Precision Play by Terence Reese

[EricK]

JT you have missed the point again. If 1H is a random overcall then it is a random overcall. If it has a specific meaning then that specific meaning needs to be divulged. When we played 1H = 13 cards pd the overcaller could literally have anything. I don't know why you describe the bid as a fert, because that does have a specified point range.

Destructive methods against a big C work well as your side is unlikely to have game.

But do most people who say they play that eg a 1♠ overcall show anything really do that ?

 

In other words, are there any hands where they would sometimes overcall 1♦ (with whatever precise meaning that had) but sometimes with the exact same hand and exact same vulnerability etc overcall 1♠?

 

Eric

[hrothgar]

Speaking of defenses over a strong club, almost forgot---there is a movement afoot from the ACBL about regulation of these items for the GCC (General Convention Chart). Any thoughts?

Personally, I think that this has very little to do with protecting Strong Club players. I have, however, noticed that players have started adopting very aggressive overcall systems over strong 2♣ opening bids.

 

For what its worth, I very much disapprove of limiting what competitive bidding structures players can adopt over strong club systems

[Free]

I always play a defense against strong 1♣ which anyone might hate. Basicly, it all started with bidding 1♠ with less than 4 ♠s, and passing with at least 4 ♠s. This brought up some problems (no pass available when V for example) so I made some changes so I could still keep that 1♠ overcall. Since it comes up A LOT, it's a nice tool.

So I sacrificed the 1♥ overcall to show 4+ ♠s (and also less than 4 ♥s :) ). Not a real loss or gain for the overcall, but some nice stuff for our partner. So basicly I can bid ANY hand with 3 bids: 1♥, 1♠ and 1NT (includes 44+M). Even 4333's can be bid this way :D All other bids have some meaning to, but it doesn't mean we don't have all these handtypes. Just an example: We have 6 ♥s and 1♠. We can bid 1♠, 2♥, 3♥ or even 4♥. Bidding 1♠ means 0-3 ♠s, and that's it.

 

Playing 1♠=any 13 cards is just a similar way to be able to intervene with ANY hand at 1-level. You're free to chose if you'll bid 1♠ or another bid which tells your story, so basicly you just don't know anything at all, that's it... Even if you know what the other bids mean, overcaller can still have them.

 

I once overcalled 1♠ (promissing any hand with 0-3♠s) on something like x-AJx-AQxxxx-xxx. Our opps ended up too high and we had a good score. If I would've bid 3♦ or so, I would've been screwed bigtime, since my partner had absolutely nothing! If I passed, they would've found their right contract.