mtvesuvius Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 I was kibitzing/commentating the Australian Youth Butler when this auction came up: [hv=d=s&v=e&b=3&a=p1d4h4n]133|100|What should this mean?[/hv] As an additional question, what would you bid with the actual hand: [hv=pc=n&e=sa7h5dqt42cqt9754&d=s&v=e&b=3&a=p1d4h]133|200[/hv] Assume a standardish 2/1 with 15-17 NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 It is most useful as long clubs and diamond support, a hand similiar to one you showed. I would like a little more in the way of controls, or the vulnerability to be reversed, but I would at least consider it with the hand you held. In a pickup game with an average player, I would probably assume it to be blackwood however, because what it should be and what people play it as is, unfortunately, two completely different things. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 If 4N is ♦'&♣'s how would you ask for aces in this sequence 1♦ (4♥) ? Why not bid 5♣ with long clubs and diamond support and keep 4N for the Ace ask? I doubt you would need 5♣ for exclusion or anything here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Long clubs with D-fit. But much stronger slammy than this -- 4-fit + 1xA?This hand just bids 5D. Keep partner trusting other bids are slammy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Why not bid 5♣ with long clubs and diamond support and keep 4N for the Ace ask? I doubt you would need 5♣ for exclusion or anything here. Because there are hands where u have only ♣ suit and strong hand, without ♦s. To me this is RKCB. (With a pick up pd) I do not seek precision after a heavy preempt like this. With the hand u gave, i would suck it up and pass. But i think i can be convinced to play ♦ supp + ♣ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich-b Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 4NT here should show a ♦ fit , with longer ♣s , similar to the actual hand, though probably stronger.Amazingly my pd held almost the same hand this week in a BBO match , and chose to double , reasoning that if I bid 4♠ he would correct to 5♦. This turned out to be a great success since I had 4432 with ♥KQJ9... Full hand here :http://www.bridgebase.com/myhands/hands.php?traveller=6637-1295293650-43385264&username=mich-b Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quiddity Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 weird, I would have assumed natural (especially at this vul). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 If it goes 1X - (4Y) then 4NT is: - RKC if Y is lower than X. - a 2-suiter if Y is higher than X. I think JLOGIC taught me this rule, it's not mine Phil! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 I would also use Han's rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) If it goes 1X - (4Y) then 4NT is: - RKC if Y is lower than X. - a 2-suiter if Y is higher than X. I think JLOGIC taught me this rule, it's not mine Phil!Which two suits are shown by 1♣ (4♦) 4NT? And why is it right to play 1♠ (4♥) 4NT as RKC but 1♥ (4♠) 4NT as two suits? My rule [edited to correct transposition between majors and minors] would be - RKC if Y is a minor - a 2-suiter if Y is a major That also covers 1♦ (4♦) and 1♥ (4♥), which are undefined in Not Han's Rule. Edited January 20, 2011 by gnasher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 And which two suits are shown by 1♣-4♦-4NT in Andy's Alternative Adage? It just might make sense to play that 4NT as natural. Or a good raise to 5♣ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 And why is it right to play 1♠ (4♥) 4NT as RKC but 1♥ (4♠) 4NT as two suits?I can't answer your other question but this one seems easy. If I have 3 spades and a long minor I will bid 4♠ on the first auction. But if I have 3 hearts and a long minor I want to offer a choie on the second auction (assuming I have enough shape to compete to the 5-level). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 And which two suits are shown by 1♣-4♦-4NT in Andy's Alternative Adage?I got my majors and minors mixed up - I'll correct the original post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 I can't answer your other question but this one seems easy. If I have 3 spades and a long minor I will bid 4♠ on the first auction. But if I have 3 hearts and a long minor I want to offer a choie on the second auction (assuming I have enough shape to compete to the 5-level).True, but even after 1♠ (4♥) there are plenty of hands with both minors that don't want to risk a double. I think that's more likely than either RKC or natural, but maybe that's because I'm dealt fewer Keycard hands than most people. I think we had a discussion about this sometime last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mich-b Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 If it goes 1X - (4Y) then 4NT is: - RKC if Y is lower than X. - a 2-suiter if Y is higher than X. I think JLOGIC taught me this rule, it's not mine Phil!An alternative rule (simpler and imo a little better):RKC if Y is a minor.a 2 suiter if Y is a major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 gnasher's rule is spreading like wildfire! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Which two suits are shown by 1♣ (4♦) 4NT? I play that as RKC but I suppose you meant to ask about 1D - 4C. That's the exception to the rule. And why is it right to play 1♠ (4♥) 4NT as RKC but 1♥ (4♠) 4NT as two suits? I never claimed that anything is right. I think the difference between the two auctions is obvious though, so I'll let you figure it out. My rule [edited to correct transposition between majors and minors] would be - RKC if Y is a minor - a 2-suiter if Y is a major That also covers 1♦ (4♦) and 1♥ (4♥), which are undefined in Not Han's Rule. I sure hope my opponents aren't reading this, or they'll start overcalling 1H - 4H! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 I play that [1♣-4♦;4NT] as RKC but I suppose you meant to ask about 1D - 4C. That's the exception to the rule.No, I meant to ask about 1♣-4♦-4NT. Diamonds are Y, and clubs are X, so Y > X and the rule you originally posted would make it a two-suiter. Either that or I've completely lost my mind. I sure hope my opponents aren't reading this, or they'll start overcalling 1H - 4H!There's no harm in being prepared. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 No, I meant to ask about 1♣-4♦-4NT. Uh yes, it was I who lost his mind. But indeed, that's the exception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 agree with Ben (all the way to the top) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 I play that if Y>X then 4NT is blackwood, if Y<X then 4NT is blackwood, if Y=X then 4NT is blackwood (actually RKCB in all 3) I am sure this is suboptimum, but looking at all the messy rules I am reading here I am starting to think my methods are very practical. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 You don't need more than 3 hours of college mathematics to understand the difference between X>Y and Y>X. (Or was it 30 hours, too long ago...) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Over 20 hours, I believe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mtvesuvius Posted January 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Over 20 hours, I believe.:( I guess I'll take a few more classes then come back to read this thread again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Those of you who don't know what we're talking about, http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/21068-matchpoints-declarer-play/ one of the threads of the decade (full list here: http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/36686-threads-of-the-decade/ ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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