jillybean Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 [hv=pc=n&s=sqjha3d9854ckqjt5&n=sak75hk965d3ca742&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cp2c(gf*inverted)p3nppp]266|200[/hv] This auction was terrible but I'm not sure how we would find 6♣1♣:2♣2♥:3♣4♣:? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pooltuna Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 [hv=pc=n&s=sqjha3d9854ckqjt5&n=sak75hk965d3ca742&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cp2c(gf*inverted)p3nppp]266|200[/hv] This auction was terrible but I'm not sure how we would find 6♣1♣:2♣2♥:3♣4♣:?hopefully South's 2♣ call denied a 4 card major. Nevertheless North needs a ♦ splinter call which is short of 3NT (BTW I really, really hate the 3NT bid with a stiff ♦ but it would at least be tolerable if it was an A or K) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 [hv=pc=n&s=sqjha3d9854ckqjt5&n=sak75hk965d3ca742&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cp2c(gf*inverted)p3nppp]266|200[/hv] This auction was terrible but I'm not sure how we would find 6♣1♣:2♣2♥:3♣4♣:?North should splinter with 3♦ over 2♣, if that is how South would understand it. This should make South very excited and the auction could go 3H-3S-4C-4H-4N-5♥-6♣ if you play 1430 RKCB here. (If you play 3014 it is more tricky as a 5♦ reply would put you too high. In that case South should bid 4S instead, in case North would understand it as last train, over which North could probably bid 6♣.) If North cannot show his shortness, this slam will be impossible to bid with accuracy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hrothgar Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 [hv=pc=n&s=sqjha3d9854ckqjt5&n=sak75hk965d3ca742&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cp2c(gf*inverted)p3nppp]266|200[/hv] This auction was terrible but I'm not sure how we would find 6♣1♣:2♣2♥:3♣4♣:? Hi Kathryn 4441 hands can present real problems for standard methods (there's a reason that odd opening bids like the Roman 2D opening were developed). Now-a-days, folks really don't seem to use these specialized openings that much, however, that doesn't mean that the original awkward rebid problems have gone away. First things first: What does a 2C raise show (I'm going to assume that your playing inverted minors since there was an alert) Next, you need to determine what a reverse after an inverted minor raise shows.A lot of good players use this bid to show stoppers (placing a priority on investigating NT)Others play that the bid shows shape (prioritizing strain). I prefer towards the latter interpretation, so I'd rebid 2H (like you did)[unlike a "real" reverse, I don't think it makes sense to insist that Clubs are longer than hearts here, however, the 2♥ bid should promise 4 hearts and 4+ Clubs). I like the 3♣ rebid, however, 3♠ might be better than 4♣ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
losercover Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 We need to add minorwood to our card. If it was there I would bid 4C. The hand has first or second round controls in all suits. Over a 4NT response, you could pass, bid 5C or 6C. If you splinter over 2C, there isn't a lot of room to cue bid before either signing off or being forced to the 6 level and you would definitely get a a diamond lead against a NT contract. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted January 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Hi, 2♣ was inverted, gf (click to see the explantion) I don't play that 2♣ denies a 4cM, it tells partner I have a gf club raise (5+) but it does not deny a 4cM, should it? If the auction starts 1C:1H 1N how will I ever show 5+ clubs? After 1m:2m I like to show shape, so 2♥ will be 4. Agree, 2♥ it not a reverse in the sense that it does not show longer clubs. I'm not sure of 3♠/3♣. If we then correct 3N to 4♣ partner should know we are showing ♠ control and interested in a ♣ slam? With discussion, I would be suporting clubs at this stage. 3♦ splinter is great, if discussed. I don't fully understand last train. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted January 17, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 We need to add minorwood to our card. If it was there I would bid 4C. The hand has first or second round controls in all suits. Over a 4NT response, you could pass, bid 5C or 6C. If you splinter over 2C, there isn't a lot of room to cue bid before either signing off or being forced to the 6 level and you would definitely get a a diamond lead against a NT contract. We've removed minorwood from our card, but we do have kickback ;) btw, neither of us have 1st or 2nd round control in all suits to be able to pass 4N. After a 3♦ splinter, room to cue bid isn't a problem. This should never be played in NT. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
losercover Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 How many times was this hand played? I'm guessing 3NT was the final contract most of the time and it made more than 3NT. In your orginal auction, a major suit lead is going to be made unless the leading hand has a solid diamond sequence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 Splinter!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 We'd bid: 1♣-2♣ 1♣ and 2♣ both show 4+ cards, 2♣ is inverted2♦-3♦ Artificial enquiry better than min: 5+♣, 4♦ 13+ 3N-4♣ : partner has values in clubs, hearts and spades if he's short in diamonds this will play badly in 3N and well in clubs4♦-5♣ keycard: 2 with6♣ At worst this is on the A♥ being right but most of the time it's near laydown. At pairs, it's possible the auction would stop in 3N, but at teams I think it would go as above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackshoe Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 I agree with Fluffy. Something like:[hv=d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1cp2cp3dp3hp3sp4cp4sp6cppp]133|100[/hv] 4♣ is Minorwood. If you prefer Kickback, bid 4♦, reply 4NT (two without). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted January 17, 2011 Report Share Posted January 17, 2011 As others have said - Splinter. I guess you need discussion but: 1m 2m3x (jump) can be defined as a splinter then it is easy for south to imagine the hands are extremely well fitting. After which it will be hard if not impossible to stop below slam by any sensible methods. Note that a splinter while helping partner evaluate also confirms that we do have a clubs fit. All of this is good news to south. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted January 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 How many times was this hand played? I'm guessing 3NT was the final contract most of the time and it made more than 3NT. In your orginal auction, a major suit lead is going to be made unless the leading hand has a solid diamond sequence. Yes, most tables played 3N = +1 or +2 and most of them got there by bidding 3N/1♣ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted January 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 I will be playing 3♦ as splinter , thanks.My regular partner probably would have spintered and hopefuly I would have worked it out :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 1C 2C is fineWhat are your continuations? 3D is a splinter for us. Now you will easily get to the slam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 I don't play that 2♣ denies a 4cM, it tells partner I have a gf club raise (5+) but it does not deny a 4cM, should it? If the auction starts 1C:1H 1N how will I ever show 5+ clubs? Maybe it should! The most important thing is of course that you both agree whether it does... Uhm... 1♣-1♥-1NT-3♣? (Given that you are playing XYZ.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted January 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Is there a minimum for a splinter after 1m:2m or is it purely shape showing? 1♣:2♣3♦ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Is there a minimum for a splinter after 1m:2m or is it purely shape showing? 1♣:2♣3♦ If 2♣ is GF, then I play 3♦ doesn't show extras. If 2♣ is inv + then I play it does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 After an inv. raise, North has an easy 3D bid,a bid that will wake up South, who wont stop 6C. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Is there a minimum for a splinter after 1m:2m or is it purely shape showing? 1♣:2♣3♦ most likely you should limit the hand strength to a min openeror considerable extras.In the end, you need to be happy, if Partner signs of in game,showing a min gf raise. This is similar to splinters after a 1 level opening, splinters are usually restricted to approx. 13-15 (mod. the rage slightly, if the numbers are too high. After a 1 level opening - responder showes fit an a min. opener, witha shortage.In the given seq. opener showes fit and a min opener with a shortage. If you really want - you can differentiate strength, you have a cheap splinter (3x) and a more expensive one (4x), or you differentiatebetween single or void. With kind regardsMarlowe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cherdano Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 The general idea (on any auction) is that a splinter shows the values to force to game, but not much more. Sometimes you have to fudge with this when there really isn't any other way to describe your shape, but it's always what partner should use as a baseline assumption. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted January 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 The general idea (on any auction) is that a splinter shows the values to force to game, but not much more. Sometimes you have to fudge with this when there really isn't any other way to describe your shape, but it's always what partner should use as a baseline assumption.Thanks Arend. I hoped my question was specifically in regards to this auction where we are already in a game force after 1m:2m. Should openers splinter show any extra values, some may consider the shortage is the extra, or are you expected to make it on any minimum hand? I think I would like it to show any hand with shortage. That seems to be very useful information for partner to evaluate slam and if opener does hold a monster hand, she should be able to make a slam try later. After1♣:2♣3♦:Partner shouldn't fly to game with no slam interest but rather bid 4♣ to allow opener to make a slam try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 The general idea (on any auction) is that a splinter shows the values to force to game, but not much more. Sometimes you have to fudge with this when there really isn't any other way to describe your shape, but it's always what partner should use as a baseline assumption. Yes, absolutely for the same reason that you would bid 3♥ over 1N with a hand as light as Axx x KQxxx xxxx for the simple reason that we want to avoid a bad 3N and (hopefully) find a good 5m. If either partner has more than we can still look for slam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted January 18, 2011 Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 Perhaps this doesn't belong to BIL section, but south has a common hand for supporting splinter, the auction 1♣-2♣-3♦-4♦ shows non minimal strengh, with nothing wasted in diamonds (the ace or the jack maybe with a little extra outside to compensate), I think the international name for this bid is Bluhmer. Even if you don' bid 3♦ at round 2, you can also bid 4♦ a round 3. The difference for splintering now or later is something very few will have talked about, so don't worry about it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted January 18, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 18, 2011 It is interesting that you bring up splintering next round as this is what my r/l partner said he would do. If you bid 4♦ here to show no min etc then you are not going to show your ♥control below game, what is the benefit of 4♦'s over a 3♥ cue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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