1D-1N relay

[straube]

Think we have just enough room to relay sensibly over our 1D opening. I'm wondering what the best practice is for making use of it. For instance, if I hold...

 

AKxxx xxx x AKxx

 

I'll definitely want to show spades and not relay opener's hand.

 

If I have...

 

AKxx xxx Axxx Kx

 

I think I would want to relay.

 

What if I have...

 

AKxx xx AKxxx xx

 

relay again or show the spades now? I would think show the spades

 

What do folks who use 1D-1N as a GF relay do with 1D-2m?

 

I would think 2C would be to play (especially as our 1D is nebulous) and 1D-2D would handle all or most invitational hands with minors. Perhaps 1D-3C would be GI now

 

Also, here's how we might relay 1D-1N in case anyone has suggestions for improvements...

 

1D-1N

 

2C-both minors

2D-4432s and 4333s and 4M5C22

2H-3-suited short major or 5m332s

2S-4H/5D

2N-3-suited short minor

3C-4S/5D, short hearts

etc

[olien]

I know that the Granovetters used to play a structure where 1♦-1NT was the GFR.

 

Their 1NT opening denied a 4-card major, and if their 1♦ opening was balanced, it included atleast one 4-card major. After 1♦ - 1NT, I know that the general idea was as below.

 

After 1♦-1NT:

2♣ = balanced hand, atleast 1 4-card major

2♦+ = unbalanced hands.

 

I agree that this structure may be best if you can put all of your balanced hands into one bid over 1NT. Maybe a structure like this:

 

2♣ = any balanced hand or 4M-5C-22

2♦ = both minors (not 5+/5+)

2♥ = 4♥ 5+♦ or 3-suited both majors

2♠ = 4♠ 5+♦

2NT = (04)(54)

3♣ = (41)44

3♦ = 5+/5+ minors, short ♠

3♥ = 11(65)

3♠+ = 5+/5+ minors, short ♥

 

Not sure what you do with 4+♦ 6+♣, but anyways:

 

1♦ - 1NT// 2♦ - 2♥:

2♠ = 4♦ 5+♣

2NT = 5+♦ 4♣, 0-1♠

3♣ = 5+♦ 4♣, equal short

3♦ and higher = 5+♦ 4♣, 0-1♥

 

If you open 4♦ 6+♣ with 2♣, could even play the 2♦ re-bid as 5+♦ 4♣ or 4X-5♣-22, and use something like this:

 

1♦ - 1NT// 2♦ - 2♥// 2♠ - 2NT:

3♣ = 4M-5♣-22

3♦ = 1=3=4=5

3♥ = 2=2=4=5

3♠ and higher = 3=1=4=5

 

Also, if you open 2♣ with 4♦-6+♣, and use this possible change, takes even more load off of the 2♣ re-bid and limits that to strictly 4432s, 4333s, and 5m(332)s.

 

1♦ - 1NT// 2♥ - 2♠:

2NT = 44(41) or 44(50)

---> 3♦ = 4414 or 4405, 3♥ = 4441, 3♠ and higher = 4450

3♣ and higher = 4♥ 5+♦

 

 

1♦ - 1NT// 2NT - 3♣:

3♦ = 04(54)

3♥ = 4=0=4=5

3♠ and higher = 4=0=5=4

 

1♦ - 1NT// 3♣ - 3♦:

3♥ = 1=4=4=4

3♠ and higher = 4=1=4=4

 

 

I don't know if this is what you're going for, but seems relatively symmetric and I believe that separating balanced hands from unbalanced hands as quickly as possible is best. Also, if it goes 1♦ - 1NT// 2♣ (balanced), then you can treat responder's non-relay bids as showing various minor suit GF bids and that takes the load off of 1♦ - 2m and allows the balanced hand to possibly ask more about responder's hand, probably best to restrict these to 1-suited minor or 2-suited with both minors. Hope this helps.

 

Regards

[awm]

I'd be somewhat concerned here about what to do with fairly balanced responder hands not including a four-card major (i.e. 3343, 3334, (32)44) with constructive but less than invite values. Passing a 1♦ opening that doesn't show four doesn't really appeal. A 1NT contract could easily be your last playable spot.

 

I've considered 1NT as GF relay in this sequence, but only opposite a natural (4+) unbalanced 1♦. In that case a diamond contract should be playable on the above hand types and you can take your choice of passing or raising. Then I like 2♣ natural (sort of wide ranging), 2♦ as NF, 2N as a natural invite (implicitly 4+♣, no other suit), 3♣ as an invitational diamond raise and 3♦ as preemptive.

 

If you want to play relays over a short 1♦, you pretty much need to either use 2♣ as GF relay (losing a step to 1NT as relay) or play 1♥ as "hearts or relay" (which is ACBL mid-chart since you seem to care about that).

[olien]

If you want to play relays over a short 1♦, you pretty much need to either use 2♣ as GF relay (losing a step to 1NT as relay) or play 1♥ as "hearts or relay" (which is ACBL mid-chart since you seem to care about that).

 

 

I was informed that a 1♥ response as "hearts or relay" is super-chart, but maybe Mr. Beye was wrong on that front also. Anyways, agree with the 1♦ needing to be unbalanced 4+ if playing 1NT as GFR, but the Granovetter's played it this way and a 1♥ response was "waiting" over 1♦ (which had to have a 4-card major if balanced), then 1♠=4♠ and 1NT=balanced with 4♥ over the 1♥ reply.

[straube]

I'd be somewhat concerned here about what to do with fairly balanced responder hands not including a four-card major (i.e. 3343, 3334, (32)44) with constructive but less than invite values. Passing a 1♦ opening that doesn't show four doesn't really appeal. A 1NT contract could easily be your last playable spot.

 

I've considered 1NT as GF relay in this sequence, but only opposite a natural (4+) unbalanced 1♦. In that case a diamond contract should be playable on the above hand types and you can take your choice of passing or raising. Then I like 2♣ natural (sort of wide ranging), 2♦ as NF, 2N as a natural invite (implicitly 4+♣, no other suit), 3♣ as an invitational diamond raise and 3♦ as preemptive.

 

If you want to play relays over a short 1♦, you pretty much need to either use 2♣ as GF relay (losing a step to 1NT as relay) or play 1♥ as "hearts or relay" (which is ACBL mid-chart since you seem to care about that).

 

We're definitely using the nebulous 1D. With the patterns 3343, 3334, (32)44 we would have to respond in a major. As opener is required to raise with three and shortness, we would occasionally wind up in 3-3 fits. This seems like it would be infrequent to me, but I haven't looked at hands yet. Is this very bad?

 

1D-2C as GF relay doesn't leave enough room.

 

I think 1D-2C has to be clubs nf but wide-ranging

 

1D-2D needs to handle most of the invitational hands (we use 1D-2N as weak minors).

 

I forgot in my first post to include the patterns with 5 clubs and 4M. We might hide the (42)25 with the balanced hands, but we need to be able to show 4-1-3-5 etc.

 

Olien asked something about 6m/4m hands. We open those 2m.

 

1D-1N

 

.....2C-minors (this can also handle the (41)-3-5s....they would substitute for the 6m4m21 hand pattern since this hand pattern opens 2m and not 1D)

.....2D-bal (4432 or 4333 or 5C4M22)

.....2H-3-suited

.....2S-4H/5D

.....2N-5m332

.....3C-4S/5D, higher

 

Can anyone improve on this?

 

 

hm...

 

.....2C-bal

..........2H-5C332 or 5C4M22

.....2D-minors

.....2H-3-suited

..........2N-minor shortage

...............3D-diamond shortage

....................3S-4-4-1-4

....................3N-4-4-0-5

..........3C-spade shortage

..........3D-4-1-4-4

..........3H-4-0-4-5

..........3S-4-0-5-4

.....2S-4H/5D

.....2N-(41)-3-5 or (43)-1-5

..........3D-1-4-3-5

..........3H-4-1-3-5

..........3S-3-4-1-5

..........3N-4-3-1-5

.....3C-4S/5D, higher