Multi Mishap

[TWO4BRIDGE]

[hv=pc=n&s=sq4hq953dj7cakt54&w=sak5hk86dakt52c86&n=sj98732haj4d64c32&e=st6ht72dq983cqj97&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=2dp2s(%20invite%20for%20Hts)2np3cd(penalty)3dpp3hdppp]399|300| IMPs

2D! = weak 2H or 2S or strong 2NT[/hv]

 

3HX-3 went for - 10.4 IMPs whereas 3S-1 was -0.8 or in some cases 3S made with imperfect defense for + 3.8

 

Who's To Blame ( WTB , aka ATB ) ?

 

( N/S allows 4-of-other-Major for their Multi weak-2 bids ).

[mtvesuvius]

Stupid double post again :/

[mtvesuvius]

North! 3♥ should still be P/C, this situation doesn't change anything. I have a general rule when playing multi, which is that when in doubt, a bid of a major is P/C until opener's suit is known. Therefore, 3♥ should still be P/C... The opponent's bidding was weird as well, doubling 3♥ seems a bit off...

 

If you're so worried about missing a 4-4 fit here, don't open 2♦ with those hands.

[dake50]

Too bad opponents are short a trick in 3NT and they see it.

Their 'pick-a-minor' escape works.

Was 3H 'do you have 4xH also?'? Essentially P/C.

Or 'I want to play 3H, do you not misfit?'

[gnasher]

North! 3♥ should still be P/C, this situation doesn't change anything. I have a general rule when playing multi, which is that when in doubt, a bid of a major is P/C until opener's suit is known. Therefore, 3♥ should still be P/C...

But opener's suit is known: 2♠ said "If you have hearts, I want you to bid (at least) 3♥." North passed over 2NT, so he has spades.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

 

Was 3H 'do you have 4xH also?' ? Essentially P/C.

Or 'I want to play 3H, do you not misfit?'

 

Good questions....I don't know... ( I was not at the table ) .

 

So far, Pass/Correct makes the most sense since South still doesn't know North's long Major.

 

But I think North thought South had 5 cards Hts and short Sp.... perhaps 1 5 2 5.

[nigel_k]

I don't like North's hand for a weak two, even if you open them aggressively. The ODR is just too far from normal. Partner can also see the vulnerability and will often bid too much. South's decision to compete over 3♦ is ok but marginal.

 

However the decisive point is the one made by gnasher, that North's failure to bid 3♥ over 2NT confirms spades. This has to be correct unless you have a specific agreement to the contrary. From North's point of view it does seem odd that South wants to compete to three level in hearts, possibly opposite a void, after bidding 2♠ and doubling 3♣. I certainly hope South wouldn't do this with a 1525 shape as was suggested. But North isn't really being consulted here and should just pass.

 

South 100%.

[OleBerg]

But opener's suit is known: 2♠ said "If you have hearts, I want you to bid (at least) 3♥." North passed over 2NT, so he has spades.

 

Agree. And since South bid a non-forcing 2♠ at his first turn, instead of 2♥, he doesn't have a good enough suit to insist on, but AJx should be excellent support.

 

Even if North can have 4♥, I would still say that catering to a 5-3 fit should be much more importent.

 

Edit: So I disagree that North isn't consulted. With a singleton, he should have moved to 3♠

[MrAce]

I blame south, he knows pd can't have weak 2♥.

[Hanoi5]

I blame South since I don't understand why 3♥ could be P/C. But if it were, then North :lol:

[gszeszycki]

gnasher points out that when N passed over 2N he shows spades. I wonder what the purpose of the x over 3c was.

clubs (and spades) are the only contracts I would have any interest in defending and it is far too easy for opps

to still run to safety (Your honor I would like to enter this hand as exhibit a). I would start with 100% blame to S for that x of 3c ---if I were going to do anything over 3c it would be to bid 3s (now that I know we have no heart fit) as a blockade bid.

 

Let us assume the x of 3c is acceptable to all and we find ourselves in balancing seat after lho bids 3d-----risk vs reward leads us to the conclusion that pass is best. odds of making 3s (or 3h) are slim at best -- remember that N knows you have an invitational hand in hearts and a sign off in spades yet they took no action over 3d because they could do nothing useful. Thus we can conclude that if N had 4 hearts and game interest they would have bid 3h over 3d. We do not know opps cannot make 3n let us be happy they are in 3d and hope we can set it. Bidding 3h by south another terrible error since it is impossible for N to have a 4 card heart suit and anything much above a minimum.

[dboxley]

gnasher is correct, 100% to south

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=sq4hq953dj7cakt54&w=sak5hk86dakt52c86&n=sj98732haj4d64c32&e=st6ht72dq983cqj97&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=2dp2s(%20invite%20for%20Hts)2np3cd(penalty)3dpp3hdppp]300|300| IMPs

2D! = weak 2H or 2S or strong 2NT

3HX-3 went for - 10.4 IMPs whereas 3S-1 was -0.8 or in some cases 3S made with imperfect defense for + 3.8

Who's To Blame ( WTB , aka ATB ) ?

( N/S allows 4-of-other-Major for their Multi weak-2 bids ).

[/hv]

North! 3♥ should still be P/C, this situation doesn't change anything. I have a general rule when playing multi, which is that when in doubt, a bid of a major is P/C until opener's suit is known. Therefore, 3♥ should still be P/C... The opponent's bidding was weird as well, doubling 3♥ seems a bit off... If you're so worried about missing a 4-4 fit here, don't open 2♦ with those hands.

But opener's suit is known: 2♠ said "If you have hearts, I want you to bid (at least) 3♥." North passed over 2NT, so he has spades.

Agree with gnasher that North has shown ♠ because with ♥ he should bid them over 2N. Hence South is the main culprit.

[Free]

I don't like the 2♦ opening, but that's a matter of style and it's hardly relevant for assigning the blame. For me South gets 100% of the blame. He should either not play multi, or learn how to play it decently.

 

2♠ forces opener to bid something if he has ♥. So passing 2NT means opener has ♠. That makes 3♥ natural and suggestion to play, probably with doubleton ♠ as a backup suit. North with Axx support has an obvious pass over this.

 

Playing P/C when the suit is already known is ridiculous.

[mtvesuvius]

Guess I need to revisit my multi methods :)

 

Unfortunately I don't get too many chances to practice them :/

 

I'm still not completely convinced that North is obligated to bid 3♥ if he had hearts... I think the 2N call should make that optional...

 

Anyway, pre-empting with the north hand is questionable at best anyway, especially with AJx in the other major.

[Free]

I'm still not completely convinced that North is obligated to bid 3♥ if he had hearts... I think the 2N call should make that optional...

Well, I guess it's just easier to play it this way. Responder already showed the willingness to play at least 3♥, so when opps intervene you get some kind of obligation to bid 3♥ as opener. Also note that this is not a forcing pass situation, so you might not get a second chance to show your suit. You've created ambiguity by opening 2♦, partner bid constructively by bidding 2♠, so it's time to tell partner what you have.

[whereagles]

I blame lack of agreements. Back when I played multi, I had this definition:

 

2♦ 2♥

2♠ 3♥ <-- I really have hearts. Pls pass.

[MrAce]

♠♠

I blame lack of agreements. Back when I played multi, I had this definition:

 

2♦ 2♥

2♠ 3♥ <-- I really have hearts. Pls pass.

 

 

Thats still very common, but not with intention of a sign off. This is used when u have a natural 3♥ bid if your pd opened weak 2 ♠. A good hand with 6+♥ suit. Where u dont wanna bid 2♠ and play there if a game or even a slam is possible in ♥ suit. Some paranoids may think this has the risk of playing 2♥ when we have 6-6 ♥, it just won't happen. But even if you encounter 1 in your lifetime, just pay off for it once and leave the rest of your life with this useful treatment.

 

I dont see much of a benefit in playing it as a rescue bid from an undoubled 2♠ to be honest. I think 3♥ should be either forcing or at least invitational vs a fit. Not an absolute sign off.

[OleBerg]

Slightly highjacking:

 

If you play multi, consider this treatment:

 

2♦ - 4♣

 

4♣ = Please transfer to your suit. This may be just to play, or to go towards slam, but it sends the important signal: "We are going to play in your suit." Rightsides contract, makes slamexploration easier and prevents mishaps if next hand compete.

 

Remember to agree if (when) it sets up a force.

 

It also frees 4♥ and 4♠ to show a good hand that doesn't care for openers suit.

[Free]

Slightly highjacking:

 

If you play multi, consider this treatment:

 

2♦ - 4♣

 

4♣ = Please transfer to your suit. This may be just to play, or to go towards slam, but it sends the important signal: "We are going to play in your suit." Rightsides contract, makes slamexploration easier and prevents mishaps if next hand compete.

 

Remember to agree if (when) it sets up a force.

 

It also frees 4♥ and 4♠ to show a good hand that doesn't care for openers suit.

Also play 2♦-4♦ as "bid your suit". This way you can let opener declare as well, in case you don't have anything to rightside.

[MrAce]

 

If you play multi, consider this treatment:

 

2♦ - 4♣

 

4♣ = Please transfer to your suit.....

 

 

 

Also play 2♦-4♦ as "bid your suit". This way you can let opener declare as well, in case you don't have anything to rightside.

 

Yes i played both of them, however they create problems if 2♦ opener has strong hand types. I just hate it when 2♦ opener tells me he has a strong 2NT opener at 4 level. Setting the trump (if there is any trump of course) and then asking the keycards and all is being problem. Back then, we just simply took out all the strong hand types from multi in order to let it function more effective with weak 2 hands.

 

The more meanings u put in multi, the less effective it becomes, for example Inquiry said they have 9,5 tricks minor hands in it, or canbe something else for other people...This prevents responder to take proper action or preempt just incase pd may have some sort of fancy hand.

 

Also multi with a lot of hand types in it, is EXTREMELY vulnerable against competition.

 

I watch everyday fresh multi fans and obviously they love to alert all these hand types that they may hold, thinking this will scare/confuse opponents, however often it is themselves who ends up confused and screwed up badly when someone overcalls a minor. It is like watching kids playing with ammo :)

[Zelandakh]

There seem to be 2 main methods for high level responses to a multi, and which is best might depend on which hands you put into it or just come down to personal taste. The first is as described here, 2D - 4C = bid 1 below your suit and 2D - 4D = bid your suit. The second method is to use 2D - 3NT = bid your suit, thus freeing up 4C and 4D to show extra length in the corresponding major (2D - 4C = 5+ hearts, 2D - 4D = 5+ spades). This has the advantage of sometimes allowing Opener to compete to the 5 level at the cost of forcing Opener to be declarer. It also makes life easier for Opener if they hold a strong variety. I am with MrAce in far preferring the weak-only multi but this is often not permitted by local regulations.

[han]

EW are obviously beginners, so they are free from blame.

 

South was trying to be smart (and indeed, doubling 3C seems like a good idea). But 3H, and mostly the pass of 3HX were both foolish and stubborn. EW have denied holding as many as 8 spades (so partner has at least 4), and partner has not bid while south invited him to if he had hearts. Then it gets even worse, the opponents double you for penalties, does south really think that they are in a 10-card fit?

 

South smells like the kind of player who passes 3HX knowing quite sure that it is wrong, only because he thinks that afterwards he can berate partner for passing his pass/correct call. Wrongly.

 

I think that the 2D opening was bad, but I don't blame north for passing 3H. If north was a strong player playing with a weak south, he could have guessed what was going on and corrected to 3S.

[helene_t]

South must have a long heart suit and no interest in North's suit. Otherwise he would have bid 3♠ or maybe 3♥ at his first turn. So even if North's failure to bid over 2NT doesn't show spades, 3♥ can't be p/c.

 

10% blame to north for agreeing to play a convention his partner doesn't understand, the rest of the blame to south.