Bid this

[Phil]

The 3H-jump rebid after a 2/1 GF sets Hts as trumps

 

The OP is playing SAYC, not 2/1.

[matmat]

If you post this in the A/E section and the auction starts, 1♥ - 1♠, then I'm sorry, but you are going to get these types of comments.

Agree with Phil here, if you post a problem no sober advanced/expert player would face you should expect to catch a lot of crap for it.

[jillybean]

Agree with Phil here, if you post a problem no sober advanced/expert player would face you should expect to catch a lot of crap for it.

I would go as far to say all but the most inebriated or over rated intermediate wouldn't face this problem either.

It's easier to take your lumps quietly and post your problems in the correct forum rather than try to fight a losing battle here.

[MrAce]

I would go as far to say all but the most inebriated or over rated intermediate wouldn't face this problem either.

It's easier to take your lumps quietly and post your problems in the correct forum rather than try to fight a losing battle here.

 

I have to disagree, in fact i believe that 1♠ obvious mistake looks very innocent to me compared to some replies/suggestions and analysis in A/E forums. I know it is fashion here to point fingers and boo as if someone farted hard in the church on sunday, after a post like that.

 

But i think an intermediate, who is not satisfied by another intermediate's answer or suggestion, should be able to come here and ask expert's opinions to settle his argument or to learn from experts. What does it cost us if they do that ? You click ur left mouse button and when see the topic is not for you, u click mouse 1 more time and u are out of it, simple as is. It really doesnt worth to discourage people like that. Unless it makes people feel more expert/adv when they do that.

 

The sad part is, to see some really friendly and leveled people, following this tradition.

[mtvesuvius]

The problem is that everyone would have bid 2♣ the first time, so this question/problem is irrelevant. All the responses here are fancy ways of saying they would never bid 1♠. The B/I forum is the place to ask something like this, and (almost) all the "experts" read the B/I forum anyway. By posting in the A/E forum, the problem should be something that most people would encounter after reasonable bidding. If something like this was posted in the B/I forum, I am sure that instead of everyone saying what an bad bid 1♠ was, they would explain why, and give a somewhat helpful response on how to get out of this problem now... If there is a way. If I had bid 1♠ I'd just punt something depending on how the day has gone so far, probably 6N.

 

I agree that there are plenty of worse posts/analyses, and people post stupid stuff from time to time (myself included)... The point is to recognize it, move on, and not insist it isn't a silly problem.

[MrAce]

The problem is that everyone would have bid 2♣ the first time, so this question/problem is irrelevant. All the responses here are fancy ways of saying they would never bid 1♠. The B/I forum is the place to ask something like this, and (almost) all the "experts" read the B/I forum anyway. By posting in the A/E forum, the problem should be something that most people would encounter after reasonable bidding. If something like this was posted in the B/I forum, I am sure that instead of everyone saying what an idiotic and stupid bid 1♠ was, they would explain why, and give a somewhat helpful response on how to get out of this problem now... If there is a way. If I had bid 1♠ I'd just punt something depending on how the day has gone so far, probably 6N.

 

I agree that there are plenty of worse posts/analyses, and people post stupid stuff from time to time (myself included)... The point is to recognize it, move on, and not insist it isn't a silly problem.

 

The problem is if u are an intermediate player, and want to learn what experts think, u do not expect experts to come to B/I forums and answer ur question. And even if they do, as an intermediate player, you would not know who was an expert or advanced or beginner among repliers. I am well aware that there are top experts who goes there and try to help them like Justin, you and others. And i think u guys are doing good job. But this still is not a free pass to ridicule people here for a question. As i said it takes only 2 mouse click time from our life to get in and out of the topic. And i believe the best way to avoid non A/E topics here is to simply not reply if we believe it is not belong to here and leave the rest of the job to forum admins. Anyway...maybe i am wrong but thats just my opinion.

[matmat]

The problem is if u are an intermediate player, and want to learn what experts think, u do not expect experts to come to B/I forums and answer ur question.

 

 

let's take a look at the description of the B/I forum, shall we?

 

Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion

 

For our novice to intermediate members to discuss issues and share advice (and for more skilled players to answer questions :).

(emphasis mine)

 

But this still is not a free pass to ridicule people here for a question. As i said it takes only 2 mouse click time from our life to get in and out of the topic. And i believe the best way to avoid non A/E topics here is to simply not reply if we believe it is not belong to here and leave the rest of the job to forum admins. Anyway...maybe i am wrong but thats just my opinion.

few points here.

first of all, it's 2 mouse-clicks times a bunch, since there are more and more of these posts.

Secondly, some of the hand diagrams really take quite a bit to load up, so there goes more time.

Thirdly, if someone posts here once, or twice, and the post is out of place, that's fine (i might have done this at some point, who knows). Certain members, however, just keep mis-posting their problems in the A/E forum despite being made aware of the issue.

 

Lastly, I know of several excellent players who have either quit the forums, or expressed concerns and doubt about continued participation, because they do not feel they get much out of them. This is mostly because the forum that they find the most useful is being diluted, and they do not find rewarding having to be a remedial tutor to people with inflated self-assessment of bridge ability.

[jillybean]

Maybe I have developed thick skin after too many years in this forum, but I don’t see any ridicule in the initial responses to the question. It isn’t until the OP continues to justify his 1♠ bid and then goes on to say things such as “Seriously, you guys wonder why bridge is dying, when 75% of the good players are stuck up assholes all the time.” do things get testy.

 

As far the suggestion that a post needs to be made in the A/E forum to attract A/E responses, that is not true. The experts post answers regardless of where the question was asked. And being able to identify the experts by which forum they post in? People of any ability can and do, post in any section of the forum. Unfortunately we have our share of self rated experts and it’s only by experience that you get to know who the true experts are.

[cherdano]

The problem is if u are an intermediate player, and want to learn what experts think, u do not expect experts to come to B/I forums and answer ur question. And even if they do, as an intermediate player, you would not know who was an expert or advanced or beginner among repliers.

If you post in the A/E forum, you also won't know who are the advanced or expert players among those who replied.

[rduran1216]

Maybe I have developed thick skin after too many years in this forum, but I don’t see any ridicule in the initial responses to the question. It isn’t until the OP continues to justify his 1♠ bid and then goes on to say things such as “Seriously, you guys wonder why bridge is dying, when 75% of the good players are stuck up assholes all the time.” do things get testy.

 

As far the suggestion that a post needs to be made in the A/E forum to attract A/E responses, that is not true. The experts post answers regardless of where the question was asked. And being able to identify the experts by which forum they post in? People of any ability can and do, post in any section of the forum. Unfortunately we have our share of self rated experts and it’s only by experience that you get to know who the true experts are.

 

If you genuinely believe that first paragraph, you have very poor reading comprehension and like most nerds can't see subtleties in language and read people's intent from word choice. This is no different than how things work offline. There are great players I would never take a problem to because of their superiority complexes regarding how they play. About the only person I've taken problems to that I don't mind his responses no matter how condescending is Steve Sturm, but thats cause he's a riot and a nice guy.

 

Point is, it is possible to answer a question you think is obvious without being a jackass. Essentially everyone in this thread had the same response, but there's a difference between 2C is better than 1S, and "1S is ridiculous"

 

I know decency is hard, especially amongst people who have so many friends in real life that they spend their time online talking trash, but its a fine line.

 

And I realize I'm guilty of exactly what I'm echoing with that last part, it is my nature to be confrontational after an initial slight.

[matmat]

If you genuinely believe that first paragraph, you have very poor reading comprehension and like most nerds can't see subtleties in language and read people's intent from word choice. This is no different than how things work offline. There are great players I would never take a problem to because of their superiority complexes regarding how they play. About the only person I've taken problems to that I don't mind his responses no matter how condescending is Steve Sturm, but thats cause he's a riot and a nice guy.

 

Point is, it is possible to answer a question you think is obvious without being a jackass. Essentially everyone in this thread had the same response, but there's a difference between 2C is better than 1S, and "1S is ridiculous"

 

I know decency is hard, especially amongst people who have so many friends in real life that they spend their time online talking trash, but its a fine line.

 

And I realize I'm guilty of exactly what I'm echoing with that last part, it is my nature to be confrontational after an initial slight.

LOL

 

yeah, sure, the subtext is there. That's because people are a little tired of:

- your posting problems that not many (if any at all) of the others would face since they would have chosen much more standard and/or descriptive and/or percentage actions at a previous opportunity.

- trying to justify your position when there is little, if any, reason to believe that it is right (edit -- basically trying to prove to others that they are incorrect)

- resorting to personal attacks when people tell you that you are wrong.

 

this is not the first thread you've done this in.

 

--- edit --

75% of the good players are stuck up assholes all the time.

 

by-the-by, the percentage isn't much different for not-so-good players, either.

[Cyberyeti]

If you genuinely believe that first paragraph, you have very poor reading comprehension and like most nerds can't see subtleties in language and read people's intent from word choice. This is no different than how things work offline. There are great players I would never take a problem to because of their superiority complexes regarding how they play. About the only person I've taken problems to that I don't mind his responses no matter how condescending is Steve Sturm, but thats cause he's a riot and a nice guy.

 

Point is, it is possible to answer a question you think is obvious without being a jackass. Essentially everyone in this thread had the same response, but there's a difference between 2C is better than 1S, and "1S is ridiculous"

 

I know decency is hard, especially amongst people who have so many friends in real life that they spend their time online talking trash, but its a fine line.

 

And I realize I'm guilty of exactly what I'm echoing with that last part, it is my nature to be confrontational after an initial slight.

There are ways of asking the question that might have got you a sensible answer, eg take a different example:

 

I opened a 15-17 no trump on this 21 count and partner basically indicated he wanted to play 4♥, should I bid again ? Lots of derision

 

I opened this 17 count 1N, partner put me in 4♥ then I found an ace. Might get you an answer.

 

If you'd indicated just how ridiculous you realise this 1♠ was (by saying for example you discovered a club in your spades after partner bid 3♥), people might have spent more time answering the question and less time giving you abuse.

 

It does happen, I opened 1N, partner transferred by bidding 2♥, and at that point I realised I held 4 clubs, 3 hearts, 2 diamonds and 4 clubs.

[Free]

The catch is you're playing standard american

Apparently I'm not, because in pretty much everything standard this is a 2♣ response.

[xxhong]

There is a very basic idea of bridge bidding:

usually bid your longest suit first then shorter suits later if that bid doesn't overstate your strength or length.

Now you are asking "what can I do if I throw a needle into the ocean and want to get it back?".

The catch is you're playing standard american

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sa9643hda3cakj975&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=1hp1sp3hp]133|200[/hv]

 

1) Do you agree with 1S in a standard american context?

 

2) What now?

[rduran1216]

if you believe the 1S bid is akin to opening 1NT on 21 then thats fine.

 

However, you could also acknowledge that after 1H 2C 2D 2S 3NT

 

I face the choice of showing 6-5 or possibly missing the 6-5 spot by bidding 4C to show such a big hand, and if I choose to bid 4C, partner will never think I have 5 spades since I only 4th suited. If you believe this is the kind of problem that a beginner would be concerned about with their first bid, then so be it.

 

But as it is, I realized after 3H it was a bad bid, and if the answer is I have to guess now then thats fine.

[Phil]

There has been a request to have more stringent moderation in the A/E forum. Many of the threads belong in a different forum (this one clearly does (for multiple reasons) - probably 2/1 + SAYC), and many responses to threads are not suitable much less accurate, and do not belong in an A/E thread. If you feel like giving an 'opinion', and you are a relatively newer or inexperienced player, than the A/E is not the place to post.

 

Fortunately, there is a very strong group of players that frequents the forums. About 12-15 are regulars that could either represent their country, or are competitive in national events if they are from a larger country. There are countless more players that either lurk on the forums, or post.

 

BBF is great; if you are a newer player, you can post a problem and get answered by a really good player whose opinion you trust in any forum other than the A/E. Isn't that awesome? It costs nothing.

 

Since bridge is a game that even great players are continually learning, really good players would like to post problems too, and have them answered by their peers, or perhaps players that are a notch above them. They have no interest in trying to sort out responses from people they do not know, or do not trust their answers. This is, or should be, the role of the A/E.

 

Until the A/E is better moderated, the forum will be self-policed. Like any tribe, the senior members have an obligation to keep the junior members in line. The junior players should look to this, not as a threat, but an opportunity to learn. If there is occasionally bitter medicine doled out, it serves as a check and balance.

 

If you aren't sure which forum to post a new thread in, think of it as the person that strolls into a Rolls-Royce dealership and asked what the Corniche costs. The salesperson sternly answers, "Sir, if you have to ask, you can't afford it". If you aren't sure what forum to post in, please don't post in the A/E and don't be surprised if you get an earful as a result.

[Cyberyeti]

if you believe the 1S bid is akin to opening 1NT on 21 then thats fine.

 

However, you could also acknowledge that after 1H 2C 2D 2S 3NT

 

I face the choice of showing 6-5 or possibly missing the 6-5 spot by bidding 4C to show such a big hand, and if I choose to bid 4C, partner will never think I have 5 spades since I only 4th suited. If you believe this is the kind of problem that a beginner would be concerned about with their first bid, then so be it.

 

But as it is, I realized after 3H it was a bad bid, and if the answer is I have to guess now then thats fine.

In that example there are lots of things you can do, I'd probably bid 5♠ which for me and partner would suggest a good hand with 5 indifferent spades, 6 good clubs and not too worried about the red suits, partner has guaranteed some sort of spade fit with 3N.

[MrAce]

Too many explenations and excuses for jumping into a topic and starting adv/exp/interm seperation or acting like a police. Funny as it is, they seem to ignore there are actually regular posters of A/E section, who replied this post and keep on replying ;) Doesnt it tell u something ?

 

Look who has been replying to this topic (listed below) w/o making a big deal out of where it belongs to. If there are members of this forum, who felt the neccesitty to reply to this topic, i think you should at least respect them and the time they spent to reply, instead of worrying about your 2 mouse click time, or instead of seeing yourself as a senior tribe member and acting like one. :) Besides, who is advanced or expert or intermediate is not seperated with a clear line, there is no way to make an accurate measurement either, and as we all know people tend to rate themselves high. Therefore this kinda self-policing leads to arguments that are waste of time imo.

 

P_Marlowe

 

655321

 

mike777

 

cherdano

 

gnasher

 

Jlogic

 

whereagles

 

nige1

 

cyberyeti

 

fluffy

 

dake50

 

2forbridge

[mtvesuvius]

Edit, misread Timo's post...

 

Anyway, Timo, you are still missing the point. The DEFINITION of the B/I forum is

For our novice to intermediate members to discuss issues and share advice (and for more skilled players to answer questions :).

 

This is part of the definition!! How much clearer can it be?

 

It's seeming more and more like we're talking to brick walls. Seriously, this forum does need work, and I agree 100% with Phil & Matmat's posts... I think they phrased it very well (and very clearly). There are clearly a group of people who feel this forum is really just another random place to post hands, and I agree with him. I remember an idea from a few years ago to have an invitational only forum as well. I think this would be a nice idea, but once again it will be tough to decide who meets the requirements.

 

With the ability to upvote posts now, perhaps the criteria to enter should be, say, a reputation of 20? This would weed out the majority of people who make bad/unhelpful posts, and leave people who make enjoyable posts of some sort, whether funny, helpful, interesting, or some combo of all three.

 

The other option would be to have a "panel" or something, perhaps the winners of a bidding contest.

Edited January 15, 2011 by mtvesuvius

[Cascade]

Some comments and responses:

 

well lets say the auction goes

 

1H 2C

2NT 3S

3NT ?

 

And now we're on a total guess whether partner is 3532 or 2533 or even 2524.

 

This was my concern at the table when I bid 1S.

 

Is this an unreasonable fear?

 

With shape I pretty much always bid out my shape. If the hand is too strong for 4♠ then I bid 5♠ which would have to be forcing. Its not perfect but some hands are are to bid.

 

I would hope partner is not 2=5=2=4 - I expect a club raise with that.

 

 

1S is nuts. Distorting suit lengths in a likely slam hand is deadly.

 

You can't get much better advice than that.

 

Don't know if you knew this but you have more clubs than spades

 

LOL

 

This is Justin's best attempt at copying cherdano's advice above.

 

Since I play 4♣ now as cuebid, only 6♣ is left, that's my bid.

 

I would also start with 1♠ on most 5-6 hands, but the suit quality disparity makes me think 2♣ is better this time.

 

Yep after 3♥ I play new suits are cues and I have to jump to show a distributional two suiter. Its not ideal but it makes hands with support and slam ambition easy (well at least easier) to bid.

 

look i realize 1S is wrong. Seriously, you guys wonder why bridge is dying, when 75% of the good players are stuck up assholes all the time. And lets not get into "nobody would bid 1S, why is this in this forum, duh lolz, idiot, etc." I realize its a bad bid, it didn't take long after partner bid 3H that I knew I'd backed myself into a corner. I'm trying to decide between 7C and 6NT and how to navigate there.

 

How about after

 

1H 2C

3H ?

 

1. Five spades is less of a problem as partner won't have three spades all that often

 

2. Depends what 3♥ means. If it is suit setting then we just cue-bid. If not then I still play new suits are cue-bids and would have to jump (and hope partner doesn't think it is exclusion or something exotic)

 

 

I wish the % was this low :P

 

If you genuinely believe that first paragraph, you have very poor reading comprehension and like most nerds can't see subtleties in language and read people's intent from word choice. This is no different than how things work offline. There are great players I would never take a problem to because of their superiority complexes regarding how they play. About the only person I've taken problems to that I don't mind his responses no matter how condescending is Steve Sturm, but thats cause he's a riot and a nice guy.

 

Point is, it is possible to answer a question you think is obvious without being a jackass. Essentially everyone in this thread had the same response, but there's a difference between 2C is better than 1S, and "1S is ridiculous"

 

I know decency is hard, especially amongst people who have so many friends in real life that they spend their time online talking trash, but its a fine line.

 

And I realize I'm guilty of exactly what I'm echoing with that last part, it is my nature to be confrontational after an initial slight.

 

Personally I often have a pretty thin skin but I wouldn't care about "1♠ is ridiculous" to me that is not a personal attack. It is just an opinion about a bid.

 

Your attack of jillybean is at least an order of magnitude more personal.

 

by-the-by, the percentage isn't much different for not-so-good players, either.

 

My experience is that most better players are fine people and that there is more unpleasantness generated by some "not-so-good" players. Of course there are exceptions - particularly many fine lesser players.

[Fluffy]

With the ability to upvote posts now, perhaps the criteria to enter should be, say, a reputation of 20? This would weed out the majority of people who make bad/unhelpful posts, and leave people who make enjoyable posts of some sort, whether funny, helpful, interesting, or some combo of all three.

It is so easy to alter your own reputation, so it is not very helpful. And too much dependant on how long you've been on the forums.

 

IMO people forget that A/E forum also reads advanced, while it also reads advanced there will be more posts that qualify for it than the regulars want it to.

[cherdano]

But as it is, I realized after 3H it was a bad bid, and if the answer is I have to guess now then thats fine.

I would suggest that we don't post auctions in the A/E forum where we know we have previously made a bad bid.

(In fact I would suggest this for any forum.)

[MrAce]

Edit, misread Timo's post...

 

Anyway, Timo, you are still missing the point. The DEFINITION of the B/I forum is

 

I saw the definition when it was first posted, and i admit i have to take my suggestion back about intermediate players seeking expert answers should be able to post here...but noone seems to answer or make a comment about what i actually tried to say. So let me make it more clear, and ask this time.

 

-What are our criterias to determine if a post is advanced or intermediate or expert ? Is there such a clear border to seperate them ? Or are we all supposed to believe that it doesn't belong here just because some SENIOR members said so ?

 

-If we have criterias, what makes you or Phil or Matmat or me think ours is RIGHT and moderator's is WRONG ? (Since some of us mentioned forums needs work, or not moderated well enough)

 

And look at the suggestions/observations some of us came up with;

 

1- Forum is not moderated good, so like all tribes it should be self-policed by senior members and newer members should follow them !! Wow

 

2-Maybe a forum for invited people ? And make a bidding contest to figure who should be invited ? Votes and all ? WOW WOW WOW.

 

What is next ? Should members be required to have an A/E tatoo under their eye and MUST shoot or stab an intermediate to join the gang ? :D (Joke mate :) )

 

Anyway, in my personal opinion, jumping into someone's topic and telling the level of topic is too low to be here, by any member, is postjacking. Especially doing this when there are some really decent players who are currently involved and replying to the topic. So i agree with all of you about your goal, i disagree with your methods. :)

[MrAce]

I would suggest that we don't post auctions in the A/E forum where we know we have previously made a bad bid.

(In fact I would suggest this for any forum.)

 

Agreed.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I remember an idea from a few years ago to have an invitational only forum as well. I think this would be a nice idea, but once again it will be tough to decide who meets the requirements.

 

The separate forum heading could be ( right below the A/E forum):

 

 

By Invitation Only

.... Forum exclusively designated for stuck up @$$holes

 

I still like the idea of "just click out" if you have issues with the post... or poster.

But I realize it is more fun to subject someone to public ridicule.