Hanoi5 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 [hv=pc=n&w=sk62ht62d5ckj9542&e=saj3h9dakt72cat63&d=e&v=n&b=2&a=1d1hp2hdp3c3h4c4h5cppp]266|200[/hv] Mp's. (Any difference if imp's?). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerclee Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 This hand is pretty complicated, but the most important thing to realize is that 3C is a ridiculous underbid. 4C is too much, partner didn't promise anything and east has a lot of defense against 3H. Getting to 6C is very hard, I think the auction should start 1D 1H P 2HX P 3H P4C P 4S P (4S can't be an offer to play on this auction) If east has last train (4N) available, then that's perfect, but for most partnerships he has to either drive to slam or sign off. It's not obvious to me what's right, a hand like Kx xxx xxx KQxxx is on a spade hook through the heart raiser and a bit more, but a hand like Kxx xxx xx KQxxx is quite a good slam, and Kxx xxx xx KJxxx is a marginally good slam. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 3C is awful. If my options were to bid 6C or 3C I would easily choose 6C. Partner's double shows significant extras once you have passed 1H, he will not double with a 4144 13 count. But opposite a 4144 13 count you should have good play for game, I mean Axxx x Axxx Axxx is a perfecta but thats a 12 count and not even close to a double of 2H. Once partner freely raises to 4C after I have still shown nothing, I would try to get to 7, and end up in 6 when partner can't bid 5H(I don't think 4N can be keycard unfortunately, assuming all of our bidding has been rational to that point, it should just be a slam try with no spade control). Not sure I agree with clee that 4C is a bad bid, our partner who bid 3C always or almost always has 5 clubs imo (3424 is the only questionable shape). Our hand is pretty strong opposite a hand with 5 clubs, specifically our 4th club is huge and our prime cards. xxx xxx xx Kxxxx is a very reasonable 5C game. It is an aggressive bid though, but I like it. I don't see anything wrong with 1D 1H p 2H X p 5C tbh. It shows the nature of our hand pretty well, and we're always going to game. We had 4C available, so 5C is quite strong Partner has an easy 6C bid over that. If you start with 3H your intentions on the hand might become murky. Sometimes simpler is better. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 3C is fine if you're playing a lebensohl 2NT here. Otherwise agree it's an underbid. Still, the spade K and heart stiff are the key and I'm not so sure how one could find those. If they were both in the same hand it would be easier. As it is it's not easy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rogerclee Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 3C is fine if you're playing a lebensohl 2NT here. I disagree! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 I would use a NFB of 2♣ opposite wich east might just bid straight keycard. I know most experts on the forums hate negative free bids, I trust their words, but I would like to hear some explanations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OleBerg Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 If it's MP's and Lebensohl is in use, I could be brought to accept 3♣, as partner will often stretch to double here. But it wouldn't be my choice, 4♣ would. At IMP's, where; 1) Partner will not stretch as much to double2) Game-bonus is more important I'd definitely bid no less than 4♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OleBerg Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 I would use a NFB of 2♣ opposite wich east might just bid straight keycard. I know most experts on the forums hate negative free bids, I trust their words, but I would like to hear some explanations. NFB's are fine when you have the hand. It's the distortion of your other hands that is a problem. Whenever you have a strong hand without primary fit for partner, you have to double, and are very vulnerable to preempts/support from fourth hand.When NFB's were invented, people didn't preempt/support as agressively as they do today, so in those days they worked better. I don't play much MP's, but I'd imagine they would have more virtue there. A scheme like this (for MP's) looks good to me: 1♥ - (2♣) - X = Normal negative double, or strong with spades.2♦ = Normal forcing 2♦ bid.2♥ = Support.2♠ = NFB.3♠ = Forcing with spades, sets spades as thrumph (unless we end in NT). I'd imagine being able to make a NFB with a major-suit (especially spades) would be worth quite some MP's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jillybean Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 I would double after 1♦ (1♥) , not pass.I'm happy to pass a 1♠ bid by partner but I am not ready to surrender the auction to the opps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 3C? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Even if I played Lebensohl / good/bad in response to the double of 2♥, 3♣ is still an underbid. And not playing this tool 3♣ is a huge underbid. I like 4♣, but 3♥--> 4♣ might be warranted. I think you'll get to slam after this start. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfa1010 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 What would 4♣ mean if lebensohl applies? Almost forcing, or...? (2♥)-X-(p)-4♣ would be forcing, right? The right value bid here without lebensohl would be 5♣, but it would be nice to be able to bid 4♣ to facilitate slam bidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 What would 4♣ mean if lebensohl applies? Almost forcing, or...? (2♥)-X-(p)-4♣ would be forcing, right? The right value bid here without lebensohl would be 5♣, but it would be nice to be able to bid 4♣ to facilitate slam bidding. While I'm not trying to contradict what was said in the other thread where we had the choice of 2N, 3♣ and 4♣, without discussion, I think the only was that 4♣ can be passed in this thread is that if Opener does not have a real double of 2♥. Which is why, perhaps, above I said that 4♣ does not do justice to this hand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 I would use a NFB of 2♣ opposite wich east might just bid straight keycard. I know most experts on the forums hate negative free bids, I trust their words, but I would like to hear some explanations. Negative Free Bids are great!!! My overriding impression from playing them for a number of years are the many hands where we bid game in three bids - opening (overcall) negative free bid (anything) game. These hands are high frequency (in terms of hcp) high trick potential and are the most dangerous to miss out on when the auction is preempted. With more values you frequently have the values to compete at a higher level in a preempted auction so the effect of the preempt is less especially if as you can take out some of the stronger hands and assign them to other bids (jumps) directly over the interference. Our successes have included a screaming top board against World Pairs Champion Matthew Granovetter where after an auction like the pattern above and partner tabled a fitting but otherwise relatively unremarkable opening bid he risked everything to defeat our contract reasoning that the field would not be in this game and handed us two overtricks when he could have cashed for just making. Our record is a bid and made grand slam in a suit that was not mentioned at other tables (because the hand was two weak for a forcing 2♣ over 1♠) as the opponents bid to 4♠. This occurred in a National Trial. Negative Free Bids are great!!! I definitely would bid 2♣ non forcing on the hand given here and then getting to 6♣ would be relatively routine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 negative free bids are TEH EVIL. At least around here they are a permanent source of confusion lol :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 Negative Free Bids are great!!! My overriding impression from playing them for a number of years are the many hands where we bid game in three bids - opening (overcall) negative free bid (anything) game. These hands are high frequency (in terms of hcp) high trick potential and are the most dangerous to miss out on when the auction is preempted. With more values you frequently have the values to compete at a higher level in a preempted auction so the effect of the preempt is less especially if as you can take out some of the stronger hands and assign them to other bids (jumps) directly over the interference. Our successes have included a screaming top board against World Pairs Champion Matthew Granovetter where after an auction like the pattern above and partner tabled a fitting but otherwise relatively unremarkable opening bid he risked everything to defeat our contract reasoning that the field would not be in this game and handed us two overtricks when he could have cashed for just making. Our record is a bid and made grand slam in a suit that was not mentioned at other tables (because the hand was two weak for a forcing 2♣ over 1♠) as the opponents bid to 4♠. This occurred in a National Trial. Negative Free Bids are great!!! I definitely would bid 2♣ non forcing on the hand given here and then getting to 6♣ would be relatively routine. They both have down and upsides, and i think the overcall and preempt style of the field what makes one of them more efficient than the other.What u say may work better in USA, where overcalls are extremely sound and preempts are only couple tricks less than a 2♣ opener. I also played neg free bids, they dont work very good against agressive overcallers/ preempts. I like the STRONG vs WEAK and WEAK vs STRONG version, which optimizes the usage of it and applies only when opponents overcall at 2 level. 1♦ - 2♥- 2♠ positive free bid. (when opponent's bid is weak u likely will have good hands)1♦-2♣-2♠ negative free bid. (when opp bid shows a good hand, u likely will have less strength and still be able to show ur decent 6 cards suit)All 1x-1y-2z are forcing as well as all new suits at 3 level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cyberyeti Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 I have no problem in style with a lebensohl "good" 3♣, but I would bid 4♠ (1st/2nd round control) over 4♥ and the auction would proceed 4N-5♦-6♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 They both have down and upsides Of course. This is too often overlooked in many of these system debates. The reality is that you have the same number of bids to describe the same number of hands. If your methods cater reasonably to the vast majority of hands you cannot be significantly worse off than another method that also caters to the vast majority of hands. I think that negative free bids are an improvement on standard but I dont have more than anecdotal evidence for that but I would be very surprised if they were significantly worse than forcing free bids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted January 12, 2011 Report Share Posted January 12, 2011 "BridgeMatters: Negative Free Bids in competitive auctions - do you like them in standard orjust with a strong club base?Eric Rodwell: It is something that I only play with a couple of partners. It is difficult to playbecause you have a lot of trouble clarifying the better hands. If you just put everything in anomnibus multi-meaning negative double, and then have the eventual three level jump raise bythe opponents, you are just going to have terrible trouble sorting it out. Playing standard, Idefinitely dont like them. I just want to be able to make my forcing free bid. The only time I playthem is playing a strong club system where my partners hand is limited. As for . . . NegativeFree Bids, I recommend not using them." Side note as a nonexpert I play them in a 2/1 system where partner opens lite and often will have a minimum hand. http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/43810-how-do-you-bid-these/page__pid__522106#entry522106 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mfa1010 Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 I have always thought badly about NFB's and never wanted to play them. For the reasons given by other posters (and Rodwell) and because my opponents always seem to have so many trouble with them, even decent opponents. Mostly with the omnibus double, but also when one bids a NFB with QTxxx and the other passes with a small singleton and stuff like that.Since I have never given them a try myself I can't reasonably be too critical though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 well to be fair to judge nfb you cant bid them on garbage....a garbage suit or hand but still good pts against nfb. For example the OP hand at fav vul is a minimum nfb for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 I have always thought badly about NFB's and never wanted to play them. For the reasons given by other posters (and Rodwell) and because my opponents always seem to have so many trouble with them, even decent opponents. Mostly with the omnibus double, but also when one bids a NFB with QTxxx and the other passes with a small singleton and stuff like that.Since I have never given them a try myself I can't reasonably be too critical though. When i play negative free bids I almost never make a free bid with QTxxx Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cascade Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 For example the OP hand at fav vul is a minimum nfb for me. Me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OleBerg Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Ranting on; how about this (MP's only): 1♥ - (2♣) - ??? X = Negative.2♦ = NFB in spades (Rightsides when we are weak, and do not preempt partner with good hearts and misfit.)2♥ = Support2♠ = 10+ (or 12+) with spades2NT = 4-card heart support3♣ = 3-card heart support3♦ = Natural, strongly suggesting that we do not play 3NT. (4-x-5-x will start with a double, and forget about the 5.th diamond.)3♥ = Preemptive or whatever3♠ = Transfer to 3NT, rightsiding. (Insidious follow-ups are optional.)3NT = Whatever 3♠ used to mean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 The neg free bid of 2C doesn't have any downside here.I really want to suggest clubs to partner.I have 6-suit, so the shy of GF-points may balance out.My partnership has a general force in addition to negX. Little sorting out.Partner now can make a well-informed decision.1D <1H> 2C -> now I'm ok with most developments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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