question about revoke regulations

[Free]

This question is a result of a case I had at the table. I accidently performed a black colour coup (I played a ♣ to my hand followed by ♠Q) and LHO revoked. His partner asked if he didn't have any ♠s left, and he said no (still thinking I played a ♣ I guess). Later on, it became clear he had revoked, but all of a sudden I had a finesse position which could make a huge difference.

 

Now for the theoretical question, suppose you hold:

xxx-QTx-xxx-xxxx

RHO plays 7♥, you lead a ♣. After seeing dummy and knowing the auction, you know partner has 0 hcp. Declarer applies a colour coup by playing ♥A and ♦K on which you accidently revoke by playing ♥T. Partner asks if you don't have any ♦.

Your choices are basically:

- being honest in which case the ♥T is a major penalty card (it's a honour). Declarer will now go to dummy and successfully finesse ♥ to make his contract.

- lying about it, confirming you don't have any ♦, and hoping declarer will later finesse ♥. This way he'll be -2, get 1 trick back for the revoke (not sure if this was also with the old regulations), and you'll still defeat the contract.

 

In this case, the major penalty card would be a bigger penalty than a revoke penalty, so you're only using the rules to gain an advantage. Are you allowed to lie about your holding (during the play I mean) to gain an advantage in such a situation? Or is this blatant cheating?

[pran]

This question is a result of a case I had at the table. I accidently performed a black colour coup (I played a ♣ to my hand followed by ♠Q) and LHO revoked. His partner asked if he didn't have any ♠s left, and he said no (still thinking I played a ♣ I guess). Later on, it became clear he had revoked, but all of a sudden I had a finesse position which could make a huge difference.

 

Now for the theoretical question, suppose you hold:

xxx-QTx-xxx-xxxx

RHO plays 7♥, you lead a ♣. After seeing dummy and knowing the auction, you know partner has 0 hcp. Declarer applies a colour coup by playing ♥A and ♦K on which you accidently revoke by playing ♥T. Partner asks if you don't have any ♦.

Your choices are basically:

- being honest in which case the ♥T is a major penalty card (it's a honour). Declarer will now go to dummy and successfully finesse ♥ to make his contract.

- lying about it, confirming you don't have any ♦, and hoping declarer will later finesse ♥. This way he'll be -2, get 1 trick back for the revoke (not sure if this was also with the old regulations), and you'll still defeat the contract.

 

In this case, the major penalty card would be a bigger penalty than a revoke penalty, so you're only using the rules to gain an advantage. Are you allowed to lie about your holding (during the play I mean) to gain an advantage in such a situation?

NO !

Or is this blatant cheating?

Yes.

[campboy]

Law 62A: you must correct the revoke if you become aware of it before it is established.

Law 73D2: you may not attempt to mislead an opponent by means of a remark.

Anyway, didn't you win the revoke trick, making it a two trick penalty if your side also wins some later trick?

[Free]

Law 62A: you must correct the revoke if you become aware of it before it is established.

Law 73D2: you may not attempt to mislead an opponent by means of a remark.

Anyway, didn't you win the revoke trick, making it a two trick penalty if your side also wins some later trick?

I'm not sure how the new revoke regulations are. Before it was almost always 2 tricks, these days it's almost always 1 trick, but you could be right. No idea :unsure:

[campboy]

I'm not sure how the new revoke regulations are. Before it was almost always 2 tricks, these days it's almost always 1 trick, but you could be right. No idea :unsure:

The old ones (always subject to not transferring earlier tricks) were two tricks if you won the revoke trick or won a later trick with a card you could have legally played to the revoke trick, otherwise one. The new one is two tricks if you won the revoke trick, otherwise one.

[iviehoff]

Are you allowed to lie about your holding (during the play I mean) to gain an advantage in such a situation? Or is this blatant cheating?

Although to do it knowingly is blatant cheating, as campboy makes clear, to say you have none when you do, because you still have cards concealed, or hand mis-sorted, or misunderstand which suit is being asked about, is not cheating. But you could be ruled against under L23 in this situation if it works to your advantage and you could have known it, as is the case here.

 

Anyway, didn't you win the revoke trick, making it a two trick penalty if your side also wins some later trick?

No, he didn't win the revoke trick.

[mycroft]

This goes back to the question I heard a few years ago:

 

You hold xx xx AKQJTxx xx and are on lead to 3NT. You lead the DA and it holds, partner discarding the HT. What do you do now?

 

A: lead the DK, FAST, and establish the revoke before partner finds his diamond.

 

To the original, apart from the revoke penalties changing, (and not applying the way Free wanted for his example before anyway), it doesn't matter which heart you *play*, it's a major penalty card after . It only matters honour or not, if it's a card accidentally displayed.