Bidding ATB

[jmcw]

Partner was not too happy with my bidding here!. I wasn't too happy with his!

Ofcourse 5♠ rolls the scoring was IMPS.

Maybe we're both a bit to blame, I look forward to the responses. Tx folks.

 

 

[hv=pc=n&s=s976had532ckq9632&n=shjt872dkqt96ct74&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=p1s2c2sdr3d3s5d5sdppp]266|200[/hv]

[mgoetze]

2♣ and the first double are both stretching a bit. What would 2NT instead of double have meant? Looks like a better bid to me if it shows a shapely takeout!

But the really crazy bid was 5♦, IMHO. It could even be a 5-2 fit...

[mr1303]

In order:

 

2C - very fruity at this vulnerability with 3 small spades.

X - just about I guess with 3 card club support, but still fruity

3D - no need for this over the redouble, unless pass suggests defending

5D - WTF?!? - You are vul against not here....

X - You have 1 defensive trick and no reason to suspect bad breaks.

 

So I guess 5D, but no bid is particularly brilliant.

 

No offense intended by the way...

[rduran1216]

2C starts the chain of very questionable calls.

 

5D is ridiculous

 

I chose 3D because partner isn't leaving in 2S xx and will bid either 3C or 3D.

 

I'm guessing both players are BBO experts

[jmcw]

It could even be a 5-2 fit...

How on earth can it be 5/2, South did not need to bid anything over the XX.

[mgoetze]

How on earth can it be 5/2, South did not need to bid anything over the XX.

 

Aha, so you were the one to bid 5♦. :)

 

Perhaps not everyone would show preference with Jxxx x Ax KQJTxx, but some might.

[rduran1216]

do you guys not know a responsive double when u see it. The only call which is close to normal is the responsive double.

[655321]

In order

 

2♣ is courageous opposite a passed partner and with 3 small spades

X - I prefer 3♣, double isn't insane though

3♦ - I like this bid, 3♣ is possible although you already told partner you have a club suit like this. Passing is not an option because -1240 is a bad score.

5♦ - insane, partner was supporting your diamonds under pressure, not introducing a suit of his own

X - insane

 

Anyway, after all this you just lost 5 IMPs for -650 instead of -450 and you did push them to the 5 level, could have been a lot worse!

[jmcw]

Aha, so you were the one to bid 5♦. :)

You may be reading too much into that. No admission was intended ;)

[nigel_k]

It's ok up to 3♦, though I might have chosen differently. Passing the redouble should be to play so that is not an option for South.

 

I disagree with 5♦ and the final double. I don't know which contributed more to the bad result but the 5♦ bid is definitely the worst call of the auction.

 

North 75%. South 25%.

[wank]

i'm much more against north's double than most people here - opps have only raised 1S to 2. partner can easily have a decent hand with 4 spades in which case with 3 clubs and at most 1 defensive trick, you expect to write down a large score ending in 70.

 

3C would be a perfectly fair call.

 

i don't like south's 3D call either though - often north will not have diamonds here in which case you're just pushing the bidding higher on your shitty hand. best just bid 3C and hope the auction ends.

 

obviously the rest of it's just absurd.

[the hog]

The 2C bid is aggressive. The first double is correct, 3D is poor. I would also bid 5D over a vul 2C overcall and a 3D bid by partner, as I would expect a better hand.

[cherdano]

Aha, so you were the one to bid 5♦. :)

 

Perhaps not everyone would show preference with Jxxx x Ax KQJTxx, but some might.

If partner would bid 3♦ with that you might as well bid 7N to get rid of him. Why exactly does he want to play in a 4-2 fit when he has a KQJTxx suit?

It's ok to suggest bad bids now and then, but BBF is more forgiving if you don't do it in a sarcastic tone.

[mtvesuvius]

2♣ is a bit much, but I can live with it, a few more club spots would be nice of course.

The responsive double is a bit light, but with 3 card support and nice interior cards, I don't mind it.

3♦ is clear... To suggest passing here is ridiculous. Partner showed the red suits, and we have a clear preference, the only interesting question is what 2N should be... Perhaps the 3-6 in the minors?

5♦ is absurd. I give this bid 95% of the blame, just because it is so ridiculously bad lol

Double is bad, however not ridiculous... South can see a heart lead, diamond over, heart ruff, and perhaps another trick in the wash. Personally I wouldn't double, but partner did bid 5♦ R/W... Surely he must have something, right? Right?!?!

[whereagles]

I'm not joining the bandwagon of a flurry of accusations on bids that could very well have worked out fine in other contextes. Besides overcaller having no business doubling 5♠, the bidding seems fine to me. Pushy, but fine.

 

You were booked for a bad score anyway because opps took the last guess and guessed right.

[Fluffy]

2♣ is absurd

 

double is agressive

 

3♦.... well after an absurd bid you are stuck with no bid so you pick your best, I would rather bid 3♣.

 

why is so many people criticying 5♦? I expect partner to have 6-4 in the minors wich means 19 card double fit with cross shortness in the majors, looks like we are making 5♦ most oof the time partner has his bid.

 

Last double is a forcing pass disagreement. Blame lack of talking.

[gwnn]

2♣ is too much for me but I don't think it is obviously bad (but I really like light overcalls!).

Double is OK

3♦ is smart, I like it. Partner's a passed hand here, he ought to have diamonds and hearts.

5♦ is completely atrocious

x is braindead (sorry, couldn't find a better word)

[the hog]

5♦ is absurd. No, your comment is absurd.

 

xx

x

Axxx

AQJxxx

 

void

Jxxxxx

KQTxx

Txx

 

Where do you want to be? 5D is an excellent contract and the C overcaller would bid the same way.

[Free]

2♣ is agressive, but acceptable I guess.

 

Dbl is pretty obvious, we don't have anything to lose and have the perfect shape.

 

I don't understand why people like 3♦. For me this would show a 4 card suit, without a clear call we can just pass (since partner still has 2NT available as a new takeout). Why on earth would I bid a 3 card suit at 3-level without an honour in it??

 

5♦ is pretty crazy as well, especially if 3♦ isn't a pure bid. If overcaller showed a 6-4 then it may be reasonable to bid 5♦, but 4♦ or 3NT (suggesting a sacrifice) are definitely alternatives.

 

The final Dbl is ridiculous, but I guess it's inspired by the fact that partner bid 5♦ V vs NV. Perhaps hoping for ♥A, ♦A, ♥ ruff...

[kenberg]

I do not see the purpose of the 2♣ bid. If partner does not have clubs then I do not want to play in clubs. If partner does have clubs then we have at least a nine card fit, the opponent's have a fit, partner is a passed hand, they will outbid us, I do not wish to suggest that we can make 5♣ or that we should sacrifice (at this vul) in 5♣. It seems to me that 2♣ will just cause trouble. Of course maybe maybe partner has a magic hand where he can make a responsive double after spades are raised and then we have a magic fit and 5♦ makes. Could be, but I am passing 1♠.

 

I spend time with 2♣ because that is the start of everything that follows. If somehow in a moment of enthusiasm I had bid 2♣ and the auction continued to 5♠ I would hesitate a really long time before passing to make sure that partner is barred from the auction and so also cannot double (yes, I am joking here).

[gwnn]

I do not see the purpose of the 2♣ bid. If partner does not have clubs then I do not want to play in clubs. If partner does have clubs then we have at least a nine card fit, the opponent's have a fit, partner is a passed hand, they will outbid us, I do not wish to suggest that we can make 5♣ or that we should sacrifice (at this vul) in 5♣. It seems to me that 2♣ will just cause trouble. Of course maybe maybe partner has a magic hand where he can make a responsive double after spades are raised and then we have a magic fit and 5♦ makes. Could be, but I am passing 1♠.

 

I spend time with 2♣ because that is the start of everything that follows. If somehow in a moment of enthusiasm I had bid 2♣ and the auction continued to 5♠ I would hesitate a really long time before passing to make sure that partner is barred from the auction and so also cannot double (yes, I am joking here).

Any overcall has the following purposes (among others)

-find a good partscore

-push opps into a bad partscore

-help partner make a good lead (and often it's a good lead even if we don't have a lot of points there)

-make opps' life more miserable

-show values before opps shut us out

 

Obviously in some cases some of these scenarios are unlikely or completely unlikely, or perhaps you disagree that some of these are real. That's fine, but I don't think there's any overcalls out there that serve no purpose at all.

[kenberg]

Any overcall has the following purposes (among others)

-find a good partscore

-push opps into a bad partscore

-help partner make a good lead (and often it's a good lead even if we don't have a lot of points there)

-make opps' life more miserable

-show values before opps shut us out

 

Obviously in some cases some of these scenarios are unlikely or completely unlikely, or perhaps you disagree that some of these are real. That's fine, but I don't think there's any overcalls out there that serve no purpose at all.

 

 

I agree with the list of purposes. But here you catch partner with three card support for your overcall and still none of the purposes are really served. The hands have a double fit and still uncovering that fact does no good. The 5♦ bid has received strong criticism but put yourself into North's place. He sees a lot of shape, a double fit, and goes for it. Give S maybe a point more better arranged, say xxx/ x/Axx/AQxxxx and game looks pretty good (although 5♣ looks like a better choice than 5♦). With luck, say putting Kx of clubs with opener, there could be six club tricks, five diamond tricks, one ruff. That's 12 where only 11 are needed, and is asking for a lot, but betting on 11 seems not crazy.

 

 

Along with the good results of overcalling there can be some bad ones:

 

Partner takes you seriously and bids too high or doubles a making contract.

 

Opponents buy the hand anyway and use the bidding to their advantage in the play.

 

 

Opponents use the bidding to help their own auction For example, after 2♣ if the next player holds AJx he will be bidding his hand to the hilt, especially in NT

 

Of course I can imagine cases where the overcall will help, mostly if partner has Ax. But often, as here, I think it gets us off to a bad start.

 

As OP suggests, the blame can be shared. But just for myself, I would not have bid 2[Cl and then none of the rest would have happened.

[jmcw]

5♦ is absurd. No, your comment is absurd.

 

xx

x

Axxx

AQJxxx

 

void

Jxxxxx

KQTxx

Txx

 

Where do you want to be? 5D is an excellent contract and the C overcaller would bid the same way.

 

Thankyou to all who replied.

 

I was the 5♦ bidder. Perhaps, the above quote from the HOG captures my reasoning best.

But, I think partner's hand is more likely to be:

 

xxx

x

Axxx

AQJxx

 

The opponents bidding does not suggest a 11 card ♠ fit to me.

 

If partner had passed 2♠XX I would not take it as suggestive of penalty. In fact, prior to the replies that idea would not have occurred to me!. I'm willing to give up on that, it justs seems to extreme in an IMP match

 

A couple of replies suggested bidding 3♣ instead of making the responsive X.

I think this not best, mainly because you are giving up the possible ♥ fit

 

xxx

AQx

x

AQJxxx

 

4♥ will have a decent shot. Given the VUL I think this holding more likely than a ♦ fit!

 

Final thoughts, I didn't make the worse call. I just had the wrong partner.

 

Hey Fluffy and Hog need a partner? ;)

[gnasher]

Partner showed the red suits, and we have a clear preference, the only interesting question is what 2N should be... Perhaps the 3-6 in the minors?

I think it's two places to play, so it could be 3-6 in hearts and clubs, 3-6 in diamonds and clubs, or conceivably 2335/1336.

[whereagles]

I do not see the purpose of the 2♣ bid. (...) I spend time with 2♣ because that is the start of everything that follows.

 

I wish I had more opponents who think like this.. eheheh