How forcing is forcing

[hrothgar]

Over the weekend, a team included TimG, IdiotVig, and myself lost in the finals to forums moderator Rain.

Pleasant match all around (and congrats to Rain and her team).

 

Partner and I had a number of suboptimals results, most of which came about from overly aggressive actions by yours truly playing against a pair unafraid to double. However, there were a couple boards where partner and I screwed up what appeared to be basic bidding sequences. I was hoping that folks might be willing to provide some basic guidance.

 

Please note: I am interested in boring, bog standard, 2/1. Partner is very good, however, the two of you only pay twice a year. Most of your agreements are inferential in natured, based on what you believe to be "standard". Also, I couldn't care less about whatever pet treatment you have to side step the whole problem. Answers like this aren't responsive, but rather, an irrelevant distraction.

 

Thanks

 

Hand 1

 

The auction starts

 

(1♦) - X - (P) - 1♠

(P) - 2♥

 

Is 2♥ forcing?

Please show a typical minimum for the bid as well as a maximum.

 

Hand 2

 

The auction starts

 

P - (P) - 1♦ - (P)

2♣ - (P) - 2♦ - (P)

2♠ - (P) - 3♣

 

Does a 2/1 by a passed hand promise a rebid?

Does a 2♠ rebid following a 2/1 promise a rebid?

 

Does the choice to 2/1 in Clubs and then rebid in Spades show a stronger hand the following sequence

 

P - (P) - 1♦ - (P)

1♠

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 no, 2H is NF, 2H simply showes a hand too strong for a simple 1H overcall, assuming standard,

strength starts with 17HCP, good 5 card suit, max. 20HCP whatever, 1basically 1 trick from p

is not enough, that game has a reasonable chance of making.

I am not good in constructing hands, but maybe

min - Axx AKQxxx Qx Qx, add a Ace and you may have a max.

 

#2 no idea, what standard is, I doubt that there is one, without further discussion, and if you happen

to play a 2/1 style, where rebidbing the suits is nonforcing (Lawrence style), than I guess that

2C promises another bid (*), but 2S in the given seq. does not, afterall, opener did not show any add.

strength, and we are talking about a passed hand, which cant have more than inv. strength.

(*) I guess it may make sense to play 2C just as round forcing, because of frequency, but ...

2C followed by 2S => is not stronger, it just showes more clubs than spades, most likely a 6-4 pattern,

with a 5431 pattern and only inv. strength, responder will be more inclined to supress the club suit,

since passing 1NT is an real option.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Lurpoa]

Hand 1:

the 2♥ is showing a strong hand, typically +18H, and a very good H suit (6 card with 2 tophonnors, or 5card from AKQ). It is certainly 1round forcing. Only if doubler repeates his color, advancer might pass.

 

Hand 2:

Does a 2/1 by a passed hand promise a rebid? Yes, it is forcing to 2NT or repeat of color. Only with sub-minimum opening, opener can pass.

Does a 2♠ rebid following a 2/1 promise a rebid? no,

 

P - (P) - 1♦ - (P)

1♠

 

1♠ does only promise a minimum: typically 6H (might be less: one QuickTrick)

The 2♠ after 2♣ is only slightly less than an opener.

[655321]

1) Nonforcing

 

2) I don't know what the rules are about promising rebids, but to me this auction almost doesn't exist. With enough shape and values to bid 2♣ then 2♠ over partner's third seat opening, surely the hand was worth opening in the first place. But I don't think that it follows that responder is therefore showing a weak hand with 4-6 in the black suits, I would still just respond 1♠ with that hand.

[the_dude]

1)

 

2♥ is definitely not forcing but highly encouraging. Most players are not doubling and bidding a suit with random 16-17 counts these days (despite what the CC card says) .. this sequence says I need very little from you for game (but I do need something). You should be raising with any excuse, but could also pass.

 

2) I would think this sequence is either:

 

4225/4126 with a doubleton diamond honor that your bidding has upgraded into an almost game force.

 

OR

 

5116 with 9-10ish that didn't want to open 1♣.

 

Given that you have no agreements, I would assume the former and bid again.

 

Also, I couldn't care less about whatever pet treatment you have to side step the whole problem. Answers like this aren't responsive, but rather, an irrelevant distraction.

 

Can I make this my signature? ;)

[MickyB]

The first is clearly NF.

 

IMO 2C on the second denies four spades unless 7-4 shape, it will frequently be passed. I'm not quite sure what this means for the 2S bid, maybe something like 3136?

[whereagles]

Hand 1: 2♥, around 18-20 and 5 cards. Not forcing in my book; the cue-bid being the only forcing bid here.

 

Hand 2:

 

> Does a 2/1 by a passed hand promise a rebid?

> Does a 2♠ rebid following a 2/1 promise a rebid?

 

I don't know, lol. However, I would consider pass to 3♣ with an adequate hand. Opener seems to be on the broke side, so...

 

> Does the choice to 2/1 in Clubs and then rebid in Spades show a stronger hand the following sequence (...)

 

I think so. Typically, by making a 2/1 + bid spades, responder should be on the verge of opening 1♣.

[Fluffy]

1: non forcing, my prototypical hands will be stronger than vanilla 2/1 for sure so no point on showing them

 

2: 2♦ is forcing, 2♠ not forcing, 3♣ sing off, partner described pervectly a 10-11 count with 4 spades and 5+ clubs, partner has done something unnusual for an unknown reason, he risked playing 2♣ where 4♠ is cold or forgot to open, whatever it is I don't care, his risky approach seems to have got us to a good spot.

[Phil]

1. Definitely NF - 17-20ish, but a lot depends on your spade length.

 

2. Never really thought about this, but I would never take 3♣ as forcing, since 2♦ is not forcing. I realize it can be awkward, but I don't like the idea of a forcing 2♦ opposite a PH.

[ArtK78]

1) Not forcing. Double followed by 2♥, as stated by others, shows a hand too good for a "mere" 1♥ overcall. Since the upper limit of a 1♥ overcall is quite high, doubling first is quite strong (the shorter the spades, the more "stuff" you must have); however, it is still not forcing. Remember, the 1♠ bid may be a zero count.

 

In standard methods, the only game force is double followed by a cue bid. Given that, I don't know what the meaning of a double followed by a jump to 3♥ would be.

 

2) No natural response by a passed hand is forcing. So, clearly, the 2♣ bid is not forcing. It also does not promise a rebid, so the 2♦ bid is not forcing.

 

In my opinion, the 2♠ bid is also not forcing (continuing with the theme that no natural bid by a passed hand is forcing). I would expect that the opener has lots of black cards (at least 6-4 and probably 6-5) and a fair hand. Opener's 3♣ bid is just a preference and is clearly not forcing.

 

The passed hand 2/1 shows some values, probably in the 9-11 HCP range (a little less if extremely distributional). So, the distinction between (P) - 1♥ - 1♠ and the actual sequence is a combination of the suit lengths and values. With 4-5 in the blacks, it would take a very good passed hand to bid clubs then spades. A minimum hand (5-8 HCP) with 4-5 in the blacks would respond 1♠ and probably pass any minimum rebid by opener (or take a preference). With 4-6 or 5-6 in the blacks, one would want to bid the club suit unless the hand is very weak. The stregth of the suits also comes into play. With AKQTx of clubs and xxxx of spades one might ignore the spade suit and just bid 2♣, planning to pass any minimum rebid by opener (or take a preference).

[pooltuna]

1)IMO you clearly had other forcing choices so while this shows xtras it is NF

2) No, NO, and Yes. The last one because you force partner to go up a level to choose your original suit.

[nigel_k]

1. It's not forcing and around 18-21 if 5332 shape or fewer values if better shape.

 

2. Probably there is no standard, but undiscussed I'd expect both 2♦ and 3♣ to be nonforcing. 1♠ then 3♣ ought to be a five card spade suit so I might respond 2♣ with something like Axxx xxx Qx Axxx to avoid the rebid problem but normally it would be five clubs and four spades.

[awm]

(1) 2♥ is non-forcing. It shows something like 17-21 with 5+♥. A minimum might be ♠Ax ♥AKJTx ♦Kx ♣Qxxx. There is apparently some disagreement as to whether 3♥ by doubler in this sequence would be forcing -- I think so but that's not universal.

 

(2) You'll get some disagreement as to which calls are forcing or not here. My assumption has always been that 2/1 calls by a passed hand revert to SAYC meanings. Thus 2♣ here would show something like a very good 9 to 11 hcp and promise a rebid unless opener passes or rebids at the game level. I'd take 2♠ as showing strength in spades, often only three cards because it would be normal to respond 1♠ with 4♠/5♣ to avoid being passed in 2♣ and missing the major suit fit. Of course, something like a 4-6 with concentrated club values is also possible. Opener's 3♣ seems to just be correcting and wouldn't be forcing.

[JLOGIC]

Yeah 1 is not forcing. A good general rule is that you cannot make forcing bids opposite a partner who has shown 0+ unless you have made a cuebid first (or opened 2C). A typical min is a random 18 count or less HCP and more playing strength.

 

On 2 2C does not promise a rebid if opener does not show extras. So 2D is NF.

[Lurpoa]

Hand 1:

the 2♥ is showing a strong hand, typically +18H, and a very good H suit (6 card with 2 tophonnors, or 5card from AKQ). It is certainly 1round forcing. Only if doubler repeates his color, advancer might pass.

 

Hand 2:

Does a 2/1 by a passed hand promise a rebid? Yes, it is forcing to 2NT or repeat of color. Only with sub-minimum opening, opener can pass.

Does a 2♠ rebid following a 2/1 promise a rebid? no,

 

P - (P) - 1♦ - (P)

1♠

 

1♠ does only promise a minimum: typically 6H (might be less: one QuickTrick)

The 2♠ after 2♣ is only slightly less than an opener.

 

As a result of all your comments - many thanks - I must review my answer:

 

On Hand 1: 2♥ is non-forcing and shows a 5card ♥ with 18-20HCP, or a 6 card with only 18H.

[pooltuna]

As a result of all your comments - many thanks - I must review my answer:

 

On Hand 1: 2♥ is non-forcing and shows a 5card ♥ with 18-20HCP, or a 6 card with only 18H.

 

Personally I find your requirements too stringent as you can certainly build structure here. Given the auction start of

(1♦) X (P) 1♠

 

Now you can vary the strength of your bid with 2,3,or 4 ♥

[Lurpoa]

Personally I find your requirements too stringent as you can certainly build structure here. Given the auction start of

(1♦) X (P) 1♠

 

Now you can vary the strength of your bid with 2,3,or 4 ♥

 

 

Yes, indeed:

 

2♥ = as suggested: 2♥ is non-forcing and shows a 5card ♥ with 18-20HCP, or a 6 card with only 18H.

3♥ = I can make 3♥, just need one quick trick from you to make 4.

4♥ = I am super strong. I can make 4♥ on my own

 

all other stong hands, which do not apply for an NTbid or a support bid in ♠, go via cue-bid

[helene_t]

2) I don't know what the rules are about promising rebids, but to me this auction almost doesn't exist. With enough shape and values to bid 2♣ then 2♠ over partner's third seat opening, surely the hand was worth opening in the first place. But I don't think that it follows that responder is therefore showing a weak hand with 4-6 in the black suits, I would still just respond 1♠ with that hand.

Yeah I think 2♠ must be a raise of diamonds, showing a spade stopper on the way. With clubs and spades a passed hand would always bid spades first i think. 2[sP} by an unpassed hand would be a GF so it must have a different meaning here.

 

Oh well, maybe something involving a stiff ♦K that upgrades to opening strength once partner shows diamonds .... I suppose that that is how a random partner might mean it. But I'd rather play it as a diamond raise.

[helene_t]

On 2 2C does not promise a rebid if opener does not show extras. So 2D is NF.

Hmmm this applies to a passes hand only I suppose? Not sure I could have a hand that wants to bid a NF 2♦ and couldn't open 2♦. I prefer to play 2♣ as a gf by an unpassed hand so by a passed hand it should be something different. Anyone for play it as Drury?

[kenberg]

Hand 1: I don't see how it can be forcing. If I bid that way I probably have six hearts, possibly a fine five and very good values.

 

Give me KQx/AQJTxx/x/AJx. If partner is broke, and he might well be, 2♥ is high enough. But a 1♥ overcall does not seem right. I think this is about my minimum for this auction.

 

Hand 2: Treating an auction as a conversation:

Pass: I don't have an opening hand

1♦: I have diamonds and an opening hand

2♣: We can probably make 2♣. Pass if you like.

2♦: Good diamonds, and better than a bare minimum. We might have a game. But you can pass if the 2♣ was at the bottom end.

2♠: I have spades, maybe KJx. If you have four, as you might, then you can raise this. If you do not have four, get us out of here. Don't pass.

3♣: If I had anything extra I would have bid 3♥ or something other than 3♣. I didn't so you can assume I have good diamonds, a solid but not great opening, a modest club fit, and zero interest in no trump. Do as you think best, including pass.

[cherdano]

2) I don't know what the rules are about promising rebids, but to me this auction almost doesn't exist. With enough shape and values to bid 2♣ then 2♠ over partner's third seat opening, surely the hand was worth opening in the first place. But I don't think that it follows that responder is therefore showing a weak hand with 4-6 in the black suits, I would still just respond 1♠ with that hand.

 

 

Yeah I think 2♠ must be a raise of diamonds, showing a spade stopper on the way. With clubs and spades a passed hand would always bid spades first i think. 2[sP} by an unpassed hand would be a GF so it must have a different meaning here.

 

Oh well, maybe something involving a stiff ♦K that upgrades to opening strength once partner shows diamonds .... I suppose that that is how a random partner might mean it. But I'd rather play it as a diamond raise.

You guys are too complicated for me. I would just take it as a 5116 or 4126 or similar, just below opening strength (whatever that means for you). It's not like 2♦ shows a dead minimum, it can be quite wide-ranging and may contain 4-card majors.