Explain this auction

[mgoetze]

[hv=d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1dp1hp2cp2sp3hp5hp]133|100[/hv]

 

What have East and West shown, and what is West expected to do now?

[dicklont]

West 1354

East GF with 5+ hearts.

 

West must bid slam with 2 ♥ honours.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

let's see if I can get one of these 5-of-trump bids right.

 

2S! = 4th suit GF.

3H = should be 3 card Ht support... and more than likely short in Sp.

 

Since Responder could have gone RKC and didn't, he must have a VOID in one of the minors.

 

Eventho, 2S! was artificial, I don't think 5H is asking for a Sp Ctrl ( in view of partner's suspected shortness )...

 

...so,

5H = asking trump quality.

[Bbradley62]

West 1354

East GF with 5+ hearts.

 

West must bid slam with 2 ♥ honours.

Agreed. Except... West could also be 0355 or 0364. In my old-fashioned world, since 2♠ was a game force, 4♥ would have been a sign-off by West (fast arrival) and 3♥ show some extras (though not enough for a jump-shift over 1♥), which should have helped East determine whether slam was an option.

[nigel_k]

Must West have three card support? What does he bid with xx Qx KJxxx AQxx?

 

I don't know what East's 5♥ means but here it seems like he can find out about trumps by using RKCB or can find a spade control or make a general invite by cue bidding. But my best guess would be that West should bid slam with second round spade control.

[JLOGIC]

Seems very complex actually. Here are my thoughts...

 

I think, over 3H, responder can bid 3S on hands that he wants to set hearts.

 

On top of that, I think 3S can be bid with a hand that is still interested in 3N opposite 2254 with no spade stopper. So, over 3S responder is expected to bid 3N with 2254, and cuebid with 3 hearts (or bid 4H with a poor hand).

 

Over 3H, I think 4N is quantitative (else 3S then keycard...if partner bids 3N over 3S then you might have to cuebid then bid 4N, lol. Obviously playing 4S as keycard over 3H is better, even if you don't play kickback, but whatever). 3S then 4m is a cuebid for hearts, because responder could have just bid 4m if he wanted to drive past 3N and play a minor.

 

So, since we have everything covered, I believe 5H is an old fashioned "do you have good trumps." Usually one would use blackwood for this, but responder might be void in a minor. Another possibility is that partner fears:

 

3S-4x-4N-5D and he cant ask for the trump queen (again, kickback!), so he foresaw this and bid 5H.

 

All that said, if I was playing with a random expert, I would just assume they are making a general quantitative bid since they weren't confident about how to set hearts or didn't want to make a confusing bid.

[nige1]

[hv=d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1dp1hp2cp2sp3hp5hp]133|100|[/hv]What have East and West shown, and what is West expected to do now?

IMO

• West has 4+♦, 4+♣, and 3♥ (or 2♥ without a ♠ stop).
• East has good ♥ without ♠ control e.g. ♠ xxx ♥ AKQxxxx ♦ - ♣ Axx
• West is meant to pass without a ♠ control e.g. ♠ xx ♥ Jx ♦ AQxxx ♣ KQxx
• With second round control in ♠, West is expected to bid 6♥ or 6N.
• With first round control and a suitable hand, West can make a grand-slam try .

[whereagles]

I actually don't have much thinking to do here, as I have the bid defined as "bid 6 with good trumps". (Regardless of it being the best use for the bid or not, lol.)

 

Opposite a pickup pard I would try and guess from previous boards what sort of sucidal tendency this is.

[mgoetze]

I was East and held Qxxx AKQJx Ax Ax. I'm pretty sure 3♠ would have been a torture bid for this partner, and even if he did understand 4m as a cuebid, it wouldn't help me find a spade control. So I bid 5♥, hoping it would be understood as suggested by the two Nigels. Unfortunately, partner understood it as a trump quality ask and passed with x Txx KQTxx KQTx.

 

Justin, is there some more general principle behind the idea that 3♠ should set hearts as trump on this auction?

[whereagles]

what's your problem with spade controls? didn't pard show like a 1354 hand? :)

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Didn't 3H "set Hts" ?

 

What is all this about 3S ( over 3H ) "setting Hts" ?

 

3S would be a cuebid.

 

You are in a GF auction ( via the 2S! 4th suit ).

 

If you are unsure that Opener is not short in Sp, then you could cuebid 4C! ( cheapest, and denies a Sp Ctrl )....

[pooltuna]

[hv=d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1dp1hp2cp2sp3hp5hp]133|100[/hv]

 

What have East and West shown, and what is West expected to do now?

 

At this point of the morning, 5♥ looks like a "if you like your trump quality bid 6" call. I would expect the opener to hold a 1345 or 1354 hand and the responder to hold 45xy or 46xy.

[mgoetze]

Didn't 3H "set Hts" ?

 

What is all this about 3S ( over 3H ) "setting Hts" ?

 

Must West have three card support? What does he bid with xx Qx KJxxx AQxx?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Must West have three card support? What does he bid with xx Qx KJxxx AQxx?

 

omg... TWO Nigels..( Do they share the 5-level ? )

 

Anyway, for the above hand, Opener can't bid 3H with just 2 cards.

3H didn't promise 5 cards and neither did 2S! ( 4th suit ).

Also, without a Sp-stop, Opener can't bid 2NT.

Opener has to default to 3D:

 

1D - 1H

2C - 2S!

3D - 3S ( now have shown 4s/5h )

3NT or 4H

[Phil]

Didn't 3H "set Hts" ?

 

What is all this about 3S ( over 3H ) "setting Hts" ?

 

3S would be a cuebid.

 

You are in a GF auction ( via the 2S! 4th suit ).

 

If you are unsure that Opener is not short in Sp, then you could cuebid 4C! ( cheapest, and denies a Sp Ctrl )....

 

3♥ does not 'set hearts'. Opener has no idea of what direction responder is heading when responder bids 2♠. Responder may be making a delayed raise to a minor with a very strong 34(42) for instance. The only strain that is off the table after 3♥ is spades, so the only way that responder can set hearts is through 3♠. Accordingly, responder cannot cuebid 4m here, since strain isn't settled.

 

Make sense?

 

(I like a structure where responder can bid a forcing 3m over 2m, but thats neither here nor there)

[Phil]

Seems very complex actually. Here are my thoughts...

 

On top of that, I think 3S can be bid with a hand that is still interested in 3N opposite 2254 with no spade stopper. So, over 3S responder is expected to bid 3N with 2254, and cuebid with 3 hearts (or bid 4H with a poor hand).

 

 

3♥ gobbles up a lot of space with this pattern. Making an alternate lie with 3♣ might be better than trying to have 3♠ by responder cater to both "I love hearts" and "I don't know where to play". What pattern do you have in mind by responder where we are trying to back into 3N?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

3♥ does not 'set hearts'. Opener has no idea of what direction responder is heading when responder bids 2♠. Responder may be making a delayed raise to a minor with a very strong 34(42) for instance. The only strain that is off the table after 3♥ is spades, so the only way that responder can set hearts is through 3♠. Accordingly, responder cannot cuebid 4m here, since strain isn't settled.

 

Make sense?

 

Sorry, Max Hardy says to bid 3H ONLY w/3 cards... not 2.

 

Next priority is 2NT w/Sp-stop.

 

Failing that, Opener rebids his 1st suit w/ 6 cards or a good 5 .

 

Failing that, rebid his 2nd suit as " least plausible rebid " .

 

Also, in this "special" auction ( 1D - 1H, 2C - 2S!, ?? ) he allows Opener to bebid 3S with only 3 cards ( instead of the usual 4 cards ) since w/4 cards he would have would have rebid 1S over 1H .... showing a 3 1 5 4 or 3 1 4 5 . ( pp 146-149 in the yellow paperback ).

[Phil]

Two4, please read my post again. 3♥ does not set hearts for reasons already stated. That is what your main assertion was.

 

We also don't need the run-down of what opener's obligations are over 2♠.

[mtvesuvius]

General quantitative IMO, there are a lot of ways to set hearts, and I think that this is the companion bid to 4N here, the quantitative way of setting hearts as trump.

 

In any case, I don't think 3♥ can be 2254 (or 2245) here... I prefer 3♣ as the catchall, which is another interesting question... Going to make a thread on it in fact, lol

[TWO4BRIDGE]

In any case, I don't think 3♥ can be 2254 (or 2245) here... I prefer 3♣ as the catchall, which is another interesting question... Going to make a thread on it in fact, lol

 

Exactly...

 

Once Opener has bid 3♥ and NOT 2NT, 3C, 3D, or 3S, then he has shown a 1 3 5 4 hand ( as in OP's post # 9 ), and Responder can confidently bid their favorite RKCB ( and not 5♥ ) .

 

3♥ does not exist ( as I play it ) for a 2 2 5 4 , and if Opener held a 2 3 4 4 he would have rebid 1NT ( not 2C ) with a minimum.... which brings to mind another question: For those who would bid 3♥ on a doubleton in a 4SGF auction, would you also "reply" ♥ with only 2 cards in a NMF auction ? ... or do you think I'm comparing "apples and oranges" ?? 4SGF and NMF are specifically asking for 3 card support ... NOT TWO .... as a first priority.

 

You can only do so much with the limited bidding language, and IMHO, I think bidding 3♥ on a 2 2 5 4 in a 4SGF auction is bastardizing the system( although some will think they are being "brilliantly creative at the table" ).

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

West has shown a 543? hand, if you reg. raise with 3 card support,

you have add. interference, e.g. he may not be dead min, he has a

6430 hand.

 

East has shown 5 hearts, and obviously slam interest, for what ever

reason East did not want to make a cue bid.

I would take 5H as a quantitative invite for 6H, if East was interested

in trump quality, he could have bid 4NT.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[JLOGIC]

3♥ gobbles up a lot of space with this pattern. Making an alternate lie with 3♣ might be better than trying to have 3♠ by responder cater to both "I love hearts" and "I don't know where to play". What pattern do you have in mind by responder where we are trying to back into 3N?

 

@Phil: I do not consider 3H to be a lie with 2254 and no spade stopper, it is just a normal bid to me. I do not understand using 3H as showing exactly 3 hearts and presumably extras if you always raise with 1354 to begin with. It is fine to "gobble up space" if a bid is more well defined. Call me simple, but with 3154 and no spade stopper I bid 3S, with 2254 and no spade stopper I bid 3H, and with 5-5 I bid 3C, and with 6-4 I bid 3D. It is not relevant to me that 3C is "cheaper" it will be impossibly undefined...knowing whether partner is 5-5 or not is a big difference. On the other hand your 3H bid will be too defined. It is pretty simple to me that over 3H you can bid 3S and let partner bid 3N with 2254 if he has that. It is pretty simple to me to play 3S as 3154 and no stopper. If I did want to dedicate 3H as showing 3 hearts though, I would certainly just add 2254 with no spade stopper to my 3S bid. Yes, again it eats up a lot of space, but it is a reasonably well defined bid. Personally I think the difference between 1 and 2 hearts is pretty important, so I am fine bidding 3H with that hand. People are way too concerned about preserving space and not enough about maximizing the utility of all of their collective bids. Obviously the cheaper bids should be less well defined (except in rare cases where frequency or the usefulness of certain information trumps this), but having balance is important. If your slightly cheaper bids are too undefined, and your next bids are overly defined, you will have issues.

 

Others (my partner Kevin, and I think maybe Fred indicated this before, not sure) think that the difference between Hx and xx is very important in these type of auctions, enough that you should only be bidding Hx and doing something else with xx. Fair enough, but it is unlikely that I have xx in both majors to go with my opening bid. If I didn't want to bid 3H, I would try 3S though. Some think 3S is better as showing an anti positional spade stopper like Axx, or as showing extras as Cascade said. If you think those things are important, you can bid 3C if you want, but I think that is too much of a payoff. Obviously you can do a ton of artificial things, for instance one obvious one is since 1354 is your LEAST likely hand type (especially if you would raise most hands directly with that shape), you could easily use 3S as showing that, and re-arrange your bids, etc etc. But then we're getting into artificiality and I assume that we are not trying to go there, and just go on the most "natural" thing to do here.

 

@Two4bridge: Of course 3H does not set hearts. Even if you play that it promises 3 which is fine, responder has not shown 5 hearts yet. All he has done is show 4+ hearts, and then show a game forcing hand. Opener is just trying to describe his hand, responder has not clarified his intentions yet. To set trumps, one must be able to know of a sure fit. Opener does not know this...

 

@Mgoetze:

 

That is why, out of necessity, over 3H:

 

4C is natural

4D is natural

4H is natural

 

4N should also be natural, not keycard, because responder could have, for example, 4423 with a 19 count (make it 18 if 19 is a slam force in your style). What else could he bid? He has no fit, and he has too much to bid 3N.

 

This leaves you 4S and 3S as your only bids. We will rule out 4S as keycard undiscussed, and just leave it undefined. To me it is "bridge logic" that the random bid is the one that you must bid with a slam try in hearts. What other bid could you make? If you agree with me that 3H could be 3 hearts, or 2254 no stopper, then 3S should also be available as a probe. This works out well.

 

I'm not sure what the general rules are. One is that the below 3N cuebid when a major suit fit is not yet established can always just be trying to get to 3N. It could also be an advanced cue in some auctions.

 

The other is that bridge logic dictates when you have no room to set trumps in one suit below game, and you have room to do so in every other suit, and you have one cuebid available, and no fit is established, that cuebid is, out of necessity, your slam try. In these cases it is a generic slam try, not a control showing slam try. A more well known example of this is:

 

1H-(2S)-?

 

Why is 3S a slam try in hearts? Because we have a bid for forcing with clubs, forcing with diamonds (3C and 3D). We have a bid for both minors, or a balanced hand without a fit (double). The only thing we don't have is a way to set hearts below game. For this reason, 3S is a slam try, and it does not promise or deny a control in spades as it is our only bid.

 

Obviously we don't often think "why is this bid a slam try" since it is well known, but it is just founded in bridge logic. 3S here is the same principle (combined with the other principle that it might be a 3N probe...that is why it is tricky, but this is not the only auction where a bid like 3S doubles as a 3N bid, or a slam try in a suit).

[JLOGIC]

In general figuring out what all the other bids mean is the correct approach to figuring out what a 5M jump means. But like I said in uncharted waters, I would totally expect (and be happy that my partner is a kind person) 5H is just generally invitational, and not wanting to mess around with the 3S stuff. If 3S did not exist, that is what 5H would mean, since it would be the only way to try for slam in hearts.

 

Let me give you another cute auction:

 

1D 1S

2C 2H

3H ?

 

I thought this was going to be the auction actually when I saw the thread. This came up recently. This auction is similar, but we are on firm ground that 3H always shows 4 hearts so there's no confusion there.

 

Still, now we have:

 

3N is natural

4C is natural

4D is natural

4H is natural

 

all of these must be true in normal bidding (artificial bidding works better here!). However, this auction is different because 3S is also natural! It is responder's suit. How else could he bid a 1 suited very strong hand in spades? Again, he showed spades, then showed a GF... Also opener could have 1 or 0 spades, and responder might need to know that in deciding whether to play 4S or 3n.

 

Additionally, we need 4N as natural for the same reasons I described in my last thread, responder can still have a hand with no fit that is too strong to bid 3N (remember, opener still has a wide range). What else could he do with 18 or 19?

 

So... what does responder do with a slam try in hearts?

 

Again I think it owuld be a good idea to play 4S as keycard in hearts, but you would never do that undiscussed...it might reasonably sound like you heard partner had short spades and now have no slam interest.

 

It is a bit ridiculous but in this auction, playing nothing special, surely 5H is just a general invite to 6, for the BRIDGE LOGIC reason that responder has no other way to try for slam in hearts.

 

That is what 5M jumps come down to, what were the other options? They are only usually very specific because there were a lot of other options.

[mgoetze]

Thanks for the explanation, Justin. Meanwhile...

 

@Phil: I do not consider 3H to be a lie with 2254 and no spade stopper, it is just a normal bid to me. I do not understand using 3H as showing exactly 3 hearts and presumably extras if you always raise with 1354 to begin with. It is fine to "gobble up space" if a bid is more well defined. Call me simple, but with 3154 and no spade stopper I bid 3S, with 2254 and no spade stopper I bid 3H, and with 5-5 I bid 3C, and with 6-4 I bid 3D. It is not relevant to me that 3C is "cheaper" it will be impossibly undefined...knowing whether partner is 5-5 or not is a big difference. On the other hand your 3H bid will be too defined.

 

Interesting argumentation on frequency grounds. Would it shift your thinking if you were in Europe, surrounded by people who hate 3-card raises (and for whom having 3 hearts would consequently not imply a maximum)?

[gwnn]

90% of my partners would lol at me for even thinking 4n is not rkcb, and the remaining 10% would just say it's interesting but way too exotic. :(