Reorganizaing Bridge Related Discussion

[inquiry]

When the original forums where set up, long before I was anything other than a regular poster, the Bridge-Related forums were set-up.

 

I added two specfic forums to this group since I became an administrator. Most recently, the "Bridge poll online" and Bridge-Material Reviews. Others added Junior Bridge and Youth Bridge (I am not entirely sure how those differ). I agree with anthraxx and others that the Beginner/Intermediate forum needs to be an ULTRA-ZERO tolerance posting area. I disagree with the view that more moderators/moderators are necessary everything else.

 

However, I agree with the view that people post in all sorts of silly places (for what it is worth, I refuse to take any responsibility for Water-Cooler, as I have always wanted this to be bridge-only site. I was over-ruled on that one, and the WC has been very popular.....so of course it stays and my objections were incorrect. But if something bridge related is in there, it is not something I am going to deal with). Here is what my personal thoughts are about the way the forum was originally set up:

General Bridge Discussion was about things without showing any hand at all. This would be the place for arguing over Zar points, blinky points, Banzai points, whether multi 2D should be allowed, is four card majors better than five card majors. Etc. In general, nothing showing a hand should or specific bidding question should be in here.

<H4> SAYC and 2/1 Discussion: This was meant, for discussion of these two "natural bidding system." Hands with a focus on "how would you bid this in SAYC, or 2/1 or what would this BID mean. No play of the hands. This is all about bidding.

 

Non-Natural System Discussion: This was set up so the Precision, Polish Club, blue club, and other systems could be discussed, developed, etc. With the ability to attach PDF's entire bidding systems could be attached to a discussion. Again, no play of the hand, this is all about bidding and the advantages of a bidding system.

 

Interesting Bridge Hands: Here, I know there are a lot of Bidding questions, because people are interested in how to bid "this or that" interesting hand. Ideally, such hands should NOT be system based (not how do you bid this in your system--see other forums for that). But rather a generic question. Of course, your backwash squeeze, clever safety play, etc would be well suited for this one. Indeed, all but the simpliest "problem hands" might be posted in this forum. One thing that should NEVER be in this forum is an auction without a shown hand.

 

Beginner and Intermediate Bridge Discussion: A couple of things are appropriate here. Problems appropriate for this user group are welcome from anyone wanting to post them, and bidding and questions from a beginner/Intermediate are welcomed. Anyone can answer them. These should be routine questions without snide remarks. What is Pearson points? What's the difference between garbage stayman and regular stayman? Why did my partner get mad I bid 3♣? When is Gerber used?

 

Advanced and Expert-Class Bridge: This is sort of a narrow area, in theory, but not in practice. Bidding stuff can go in any number of earlier forums. Bidding oroblems could be in the interesting hand or this forum. A little history here. In the beginner there was a "gold star forum" (where you had to have a gold star on the BBO gaming site even to SEE the forum, or to post in it). There was also this forum. Basically, the Gold star forum died for lack of use. And the description of this forum "Forum designated for experienced and adept bridge players to discuss more advanced topics" failed to provide enough details. It seems everyone seems to think they are experienced and adept bridge players. :(

 

I suspect this forum needs the most help. A lot of people get "angry" when people who assume they meet the "requirements" of this forum post their -- obvious -- uneducated views in this forum. If we ban them from posting here, then of course, we pass judgement on their bridge skills. It is a problem for everyone involved. But while this should be one of the forums with the fewest post, it has the most post. And I think most of the problems people have with the organization of the forum has to do with this situation. I think we should eliminate certain types of post from this forum, and look for ideas on how we should restrict the topics covered here (since advanced/expert could DISCUSS anything, this is more difficult than one might imagine). But we can elininate all Bidding system related question as a start.

 

Offline Bridge: Here is where thinks like what happened in a tournament need to go. Hands from Off-line bridge can be posted in the bidding, beginner, advanced, or interesting forums. What should go here, might be things like "appeal case #3 from Orlando", that is if you don't want to post it in the law's forums.

 

 

BPO - Bridge Poll Online: Was created for the bidding contest we had, and should be reserved for that type of activity. Maybe it needs to be renamed slightly

 

Bridge Material Review: This one is being used correctly.

 

Going forward, I recommend the following.

One: Three-or-Four moderators be appointed for the Beginner/Intermediate forum. They will have to power to edit/prune inappropriate content with regards to "unfriendly" responses. No time table for this, assuming it seems reasonable.

 

Two: When ever reasonable, information in the wrong forum will be moved. "when ever possible" is a relative, as moving post is somewhat time consuming and suggest moderators read all post or even log in everyday. This is not the case. That is why the report a post button works. There is now an alert to moderators when a post is reported that is, quite frankly, hard to ignore.

 

Three: Other than new moderators for the Beginner/Intermediate forum, new moderators are not going to be picked, and certainly, no need to "nominate anyone". People could volunteer of course, no promise such action will be taken seriously.

[hrothgar]

Personally, I find the separate forums counter productive.

 

There are alot of occasions where I want to search for an old thread.

You can only search one forum at a time.

 

Given that there is little/no relationship between th name of a forum and content I often need to search multiple forums.

 

FWIW, I never use the forum headings to determine whether to read a post (I pretty much rely on the "View New Content" option)

[Finch]

The concept of having two forums for discussing bidding systems, "SA and 2/1" and "non-natural" is confusing to all non-Americans. Acol is more a more "natural" system than either of the first two, and it's absurd to suggest problems are discussed in a 'non-natural' forum. On the basis of what these two forums are currently used for, I think something such as "standard bidding questions" which could be based on any well-known system, and "artificial systems" would be better, where the latter is for discussing developing new or unusual methods. This is mainly what it's used for now.

 

If you want to make the B/I forum heavily moderated, I think you need to say so clearly at its beginning. Are you planning that only rude or impolite content is edited/pruned, but no editing of any bridge content? Or do you think that on questions which have a right/wrong answer (which some B/I questions do) the moderator should indicate what the "official" answer is?

 

There is no real answer to the A/E forum problem. Restricting it to 'stars' on BBO is hopeless; there are many stars who are very poor players and many very good players who don't have stars. Also, being able to contribute intelligently and competently to a written forum on expert bridge is not the same thing as being a great player. Restricting it to posters that are somehow 'approved' stops anyone new from posting as a one-off. There are some very good players around who post very rarely, but you don't want to prevent them posting.

 

p.s. I would volunteer to be a moderator for the B/I forum if you wanted more.

[Finch]

Personally, I find the separate forums counter productive.

 

There are alot of occasions where I want to search for an old thread.

You can only search one forum at a time.

 

Given that there is little/no relationship between th name of a forum and content I often need to search multiple forums.

 

One of us is missing something. I believe I can search any combination of forums by clicking on the rosette next to the search button to get advanced options.

[hotShot]

I would prefer a structure that is more content orientated.

 

Bidding problems

SAYC

your Topic

2/1

Acol

SEF/Forum D/Forum D+

Precision

 

Hand evaluation

Conventions

 

 

Playing problems

Leads

Signaling

 

How would you play this hand

 

Tournament related problems

scoring

movement

 

...

This would avoid problems related with experience levels.

[Bbradley62]

I agree with MGoetze's prior post that level-based forums should be broken into three tiers, not two: Beginner, Intermediate/Advanced and Expert.

[Phil]

If I were the pope, I would have set up the forums a lot differently. No one could have predicted how popular these have turned out to be, although if you look at other games forums like poker, they have more traffic by an order of magnitude.

 

The names of the current forums are simply too generic. What exactly is "an interesting bridge hand"? Where do the non-interesting hands go? I can read the description, and that's fine, but how often do you have a new thread on an 11 card suit, or the 5-0 split? Equally misdescriptive are the advanced / expert and the beginner / intermediate section. Are these for bidding problems? Play problems? I've never had a clear answer. And general bridge discussion? Is this where the 'square pegs' go?

 

Most bridge threads stem from "what would you play / bid or lead". Exceptions are things likes rules matters and procedure, gossip, and the water cooler.

 

I think this list makes more sense, instead of GBC / 2/1 / Non-Natural / IBC / A/E and B/I:

 

PLAY PROBLEMS

 

- A/E Declarer

- A/E Defense

- B/I Declarer

- B/I Defense

 

BIDDING PROBLEMS

 

- Five Card Majors

- ACOL and Four Card Majors

- Strong Club

- Other Non-Natural Systems

- Competitive Bidding

- Slam bidding (?)

[cherdano]

When I am using the forums regularly, I don't really care so much which post is in which forum, since I am jus using "View New Content" (although I would loooooooove to have a "View New content in all Bridge-related discussion subfora" to filter out the annoying-to-me laws threads).

 

However, when I miss a couple of days I really wish the A/E forum would work, and I really wish there was a separate forum for play problems. The good A/E threads and the play problems are the posts I don't want to miss.

Btw, I care less about subsequent post in an A/E thread that are not of advanced level, what annoys me more is when the original question already is of intermediate level at most (e.g. an ATB auction problem with really basic low intermediate-level mistakes).

 

I don't think the B/I forum needs a lot of moderation - if the moderators just delete any post that is condescending to or mocks the original post, then probably _____ will stop posting there or get banned altogether fairly quickly, and most of the problem is gone.

[cherdano]

If you want to make the B/I forum heavily moderated, I think you need to say so clearly at its beginning. Are you planning that only rude or impolite content is edited/pruned, but no editing of any bridge content? Or do you think that on questions which have a right/wrong answer (which some B/I questions do) the moderator should indicate what the "official" answer is?

I think approving the correct answer can just done by the community by using upvotes (e.g. by upvoting any reply by you or gnasher in the B/I forum). But more people should start to use them!

 

p.s. I would volunteer to be a moderator for the B/I forum if you wanted more.

+1

[VMars]

I think approving the correct answer can just done by the community by using upvotes (e.g. by upvoting any reply by you or gnasher in the B/I forum). But more people should start to use them!

But the problem is that people have to hoard their upvotes, to make sure that they have enough for future posts that might be even better!

[inquiry]

I think this list makes more sense, instead of GBC / 2/1 / Non-Natural / IBC / A/E and B/I:

 

PLAY PROBLEMS

 

- A/E Declarer

- A/E Defense

- B/I Declarer

- B/I Defense

 

BIDDING PROBLEMS

 

- Five Card Majors

- ACOL and Four Card Majors

- Strong Club

- Other Non-Natural Systems

- Competitive Bidding

- Slam bidding (?)

 

It is possible to have subforums. So for instance (not saying this is desirable), it is possible to have one forum entitled Bidding Questions, and then sub-forums underneath it, like "ATB", Five card major, After a takeout double, after an overcall, etc. I can imagine the problem would quickly become one like "full disclosure" where the branches become too numerous.

 

For the most part, I think most of us (I know I do, and many others suggest they do) simply use "view new content" or "search" to find what we want so forums are rather unimportant on one level. However, I would be happy if "water cooler" and the foreign language (which I can not read) forums didn't show up when I clicked view new content. Who knows, there maybe a an option mark those forums as ignore. Maybe I will investigate that.

[gwnn]

It would be nice if there was a subforum called 'puzzles'. Sometimes I see someone open a thread in the A/E section only with the intention of proving they're right. It is like they are giving away free lectures, but often the better players in the A/E section are actually quite a bit better than the opening poster. I don't know if this is only my personal pet peeve or there are others who share it. Either way, if there was a section where it is made clear that the opening poster is not looking for help, but is looking to help others by explaining why he thinks one answer is right, perhaps the annoyance could be mitigated. The prototypical puzzle of course is the B/I play problems posted by good players, and they are universally helpful. Why not something similar with these bidding decisions?

[nigel_k]

Just have three:

 

Beginner/Intermediate: should be a nice friendly place with some light moderation if needed

Artificial Systems: because this is probably not of interest to a large number of people

General Discussion: everything else

 

Plus the laws forums, Bridge Poll Online, and any other really specialized ones we might need but I think Advanced/Expert, Offline Bridge and Interesting Hands can definitely all be merged into one. It's quite unlikely that people would want to read one of these but not the others even if we all agreed on which posts belong in which one.

[peachy]

The A/E forum has a quite a few posters whose content is nowhere near A/E. I have no solution how this could be fixed, except case by case and in private, no real need to publicly embarrass someone who has either an inflated ego or who honestly does not know what expert/advanced means.

I support strict zero tolerance in B/I forum and more moderators to nip it all in the bud.