Valardent Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 Imps [hv=pc=n&s=s42hq72d43ckq7642&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=2c(weak%202%20in%20diamonds%20or%20GF)p2d(to%20play%20if%20weak%20w/diamonds)p3d(GF%206+diamonds)p]133|200[/hv] What is your bid? (any special treatments u know of?) I bid 3♥, (looking for 3NT in first instance ; partner belongs to the aggressive bidders type) on which p bids 4♣. What do you think his hand type is and what do you bid now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 system sucks at this point, I'd just bid 4♣ because that's the best slam going tool I've got Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 I'm quite happy to bid 4♣, especially as we've contrived to right-side it. If partner raises I'll bid six. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 I think I just bid 3NT... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 4♣ for me too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 Why isn't 3♥ natural? Don't you ever need to find a 5-3 or 6-2 fit ♥ when opener has a GF m hand? I would've bid 4♣ the previous round. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 2♣ shows a weak hand with diamonds or a strong hand with anything. I don't know what 4♣ should be over that but it's probably stronger than an 8 count. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dake50 Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 If partner chose to use space with his 3D, he expects 4C from this hand.He had 2H,2S,2N to try even a slight deviation to save that space -- see what I had.He's prepared for likely rebids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_dude Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 If partner chose to use space with his 3D, he expects 4C from this hand.He had 2H,2S,2N to try even a slight deviation to save that space -- see what I had.He's prepared for likely rebids. Agree with Dake. Partner just knowingly used the most space consuming auction that exists. He is (or should be) extremely strong and well prepared to continue bidding at the 4-5 level if you think there is a slam about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 No, then it is an obvious 3NT with 2 suits stopped and only 2 card support. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valardent Posted January 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 This post is not heading in the direction I wanted to. The aim wasn't to discuss slam possibilities but to bid having FIRST in mind finding the best game. As I have warned, ptnr is very agressive. In fact, with his actual hand, only one game was (allmost) without any risks. Let's pretend the hand is xx Kxx xx QJxxxx instead of the hand given in the diagram. Do you still think 4♣ is obvious as most of the posters did? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 So looks like you had one particular correct answer in mind and other answers were incorrect. If so, I'm not interested. If you want to create a quiz, please say so beforehand. Especially in the Advanced/Expert section. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valardent Posted January 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 I understand your thinking and some of your frustration but no, I hadn't only one correct answer in mind. What I wanted to debate is the nature of the 3M bids on such an auction. I think one cannot assign ONLY a fully natural meaning to those bids (as guaranteeing a 5+ or 4+ cards suit).One must be able with quite some hands to bid 3M with a 3 cards (or even 2) showing a concentration in the major and denying stopper in the other (as the 1st of many possible meanings) and/or in ♣ (due to lack of space, one cannot cover all cases) In this context, the hand choosen is not a good example bcs 4♣ is a better bid (clearly in front of a "normal" 2♣ bid) A more illustrating hand would be : xx KQx xx Q10xxxx 1) Do you think bidding 3M with that type of hand is best? 2) Only if 5♦ is a reasonable alternative facing a mini ♦one suiter GF hand (meaning : I hv no real♦ fit but sufficient high cards so that 5♦ shouldn't be in danger while 3NT could be)? 3) Or do you think, one should bid 3NT, as Fluffy stated, with 2 suits stopped and no real ♦ fit going with the odds that p stops the last one? Such a sequence will always be problematic, so where do you put the limit of the natural essence of the 3M bid, or better said ; what distorsion of the 3M "natural suit" bid is for you acceptable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 All of your examples look like 4♣ bids to me. Regarding your primary question, one reasonable method is to play 3♥ over 3♦ as artificial, somewhere between a second negative and a waiting bid. 3NT over 3♦ shows 5+ hearts. If you combine that with using 2♣-2♦;3M as four of the major and five diamonds, you have a half-playable system. Still, the best way to make this sequence work is not to have it very often. It's seems particularly foolish to stretch to open 2♣ on a hand where you're going to have to rebid 3♦. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 I am sorry - I think I misunderstood your previous post. My annoyance was unfounded. No, I really don't think you should be allowed to rebid 3M on 3 cards. You should only be allowed to rebid 3M on 6 cards, and sometimes 5. Never 4. I don't agree with people who say that stoppers are irrelevant, but I really think that stoppers should be irrelevant in this auction. After all, opener promised a monster (and if he likes opening 2♣, particularly this kind, where responder will almost always bid 2♦, then he should stop it and start promising a monster), and if we have any points at all, we should have game. However, looking for a fit is very important and the only way we can look for a major suit fit is if responder's rebids here promise 5 cards there. Opener will not have 5 card support to play in a major. This would be helped by a structure whereby opener's 3M rebids promise a 4 card major and 5 or 6 diamonds(e.g. AKJx Ax AKJxxx x = 2♣-2♦; 3♠). Then we will usually find a major suit fit whenever we have one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 Imps [hv=pc=n&s=s42hq72d43ckq7642&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=2c(weak%202%20in%20diamonds%20or%20GF)p2d(to%20play%20if%20weak%20w/diamonds)p3d(GF%206+diamonds)p]133|200[/hv] What is your bid? (any special treatments u know of?) I bid 3♥, (looking for 3NT in first instance ; partner belongs to the aggressive bidders type) on which p bids 4♣. What do you think his hand type is and what do you bid now? 4c easy so far. I think pard has a 3 loser hand with long D and no good 4 card major. pard would bid 3h or 3s with long d and good 4card major. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valardent Posted January 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 This was the bidding : [hv=pc=n&s=s43hq42d43ckq7532&n=sak2hak5dakt986c9&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=2cp2dp3dp3hp4cp5cp6hdppp]266|200[/hv] It drifted 2 off for a well deserved loss of 15 imps as 5♦= was played in the other room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 Huh... and what did North think his 4♣ bid shows? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gszeszycki Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 this looks like a self created problem to me why did you not bid 3c right away?? please dont tell me you dont consider this a positive response hand--- after u bid 3cit is easy to bid 4c and leaves p little doubt about the nature of your hand. The way you are bidding it leaves partner completely clueless at best and worse misled (what wouldyou do if p suddenly bid say 6h). Bidding 4c now only helps p a tiny little bit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrAce Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 What would you bid with this, if 2♣ opener rebid 2♠ ? I dunno your system, but since no explenation written, i am assuming you play 3♣ as second neg over 2 M rebid. Thats why i would start 3♣ at the first place, to insure myself from a likely 2♠ rebid. Now i am bidding 4♣. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 club suit not good enough for 3c over 2c opener, hand not strong enough. 2 reasons why a direct suit bid over 2c is a pretty rare bid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 Huh... and what did North think his 4♣ bid shows?Probably ♥ fit and cue for some reason... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gwnn Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 this looks like a self created problem to me why did you not bid 3c right away?? please dont tell me you dont consider this a positive response hand--- after u bid 3cit is easy to bid 4c and leaves p little doubt about the nature of your hand. The way you are bidding it leaves partner completely clueless at best and worse misled (what wouldyou do if p suddenly bid say 6h). Bidding 4c now only helps p a tiny little bit.because 2♠ shows a 16+ hand with spades (read the opening post!), 2♣ shows a weak 2 in diamonds or a strong opening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P_Marlowe Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 Hi, 3H was fine, in the previous round you could have bid 3C instead of 2D, but due to the semi bal. nature and the control poor hand 2D is fine. 4C from p denies a spade control (at least in form of values), it shouldshow a club control - shortage or values, that is not clear. I would bid 5D. Since 3D was NF, 3H showed some live, but you dont have more. With kind regards Marlowe PS: After having read the other posts, some comments #1 without lots of gadgets, you dont have enough room over 3D to keep 3H as natural, if opener is 6-4, he should open 1D.If responder has a 5 card suit, he can bid 2H naturally, so the only 5 card suit left would be Qxxxx or what ever. This assumes, that you just play 2D as waiting the rest as naturally. Obviously if you happen to play a more complicate structure, with 2H realweak, than this will be different, but than you are mostlikely already in gf mode after 2D. #2 3D showes a 6 carder, so 2 card support is enough, again without lots of artificalstuff open strong 2-suited hands with only a 5 card minor with 1D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fluffy Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 very interesting bidding where both players bid controls before having a fit and surprisingly they end up playing with 6 trumps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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