More Forum Moderation?

[mgoetze]

I've been feeling recently that these forums would benefit from more active moderation. I would like to see more moving of threads to the proper forum. There were also a few instances in the B/I Forum recently where I would have prefered a quick moderator edit to the ensuing discussion about the appropriateness of the post. And I was a bit disappointed that no moderator commented on my request to pin my "BBF Systems Index" thread in the General Bridge Discussion forum. (A fine countersuggestion would have been to make a thread in each of the SAYC/2/1 and Non-natural forums and pin it in each.) Not to mention my request to clarify the terms of service.

 

I would like to nominate the following members as additional moderators for these forums: awm, Phil, gnasher and mikeh.

[matmat]

Wrong forum.

[mgoetze]

Wrong forum.

 

Yeah I am a bit confused about that. See, I originally placed my "Re: BridgeBase Forums Terms of Service" thread in the General Bridge Discussion forum, and then a moderator moved it to this one. I inferred from that that this is the forum to discuss the forums.

[matmat]

you wanted the water cooler.

[cloa513]

This is entirely an appropriate forum to post this in as Water Cooler is for non-BBO related and non-bridge. If there was a forum forum then only that would be better but generally those are filled with inappropriate posts anyway. General BBO is best place to talk about the forum moderation.

[Antraxxx]

Definite yes, and I even PMed Inquiry to that effect (which he promptly ignored). I don't think you people realise how unfriendly the B/I forum is to newcomers.

[inquiry]

Definite yes, and I even PMed Inquiry to that effect (which he promptly ignored). I don't think you people realise how unfriendly the B/I forum is to newcomers.

 

You mistook the absences of a reply for ignoring. In fact, if you read the following note from notice of thread moderation, and note the content and date, you will see that I did not ignore your PM, although I think your PM was actually unnecessary, as I do this kind of thing a lot, including today. Perhaps you can discuss with the original poster of this thread about what kind of things might could happen if one of your threads get moderatored for inappropriate content.

 

Two post were edited in the Beginner/Intermediate forum (and any post quoting either). The first edited post pointed out the view of the author that the original poster should have bid earlier. Then added a common reason for such "misbid" (someone else sat in on that round of the bidding). The original poster didn't agree with the view that there should have been an earlier bid, and took offense at how the person who filled in for one round of bidding was described (never read victor mollo I guess).

 

Anyway, the point is the Beginner/Intermediate forum should allow people to post without even the vague appearance that their post is being made fun of. We were all beginners at one time, and asking question and getting answers in that forum needs to be open and without fear of being made to look silly, wrong, or whatever... So I felt the need to step in without changing the gist of the discussion was necessary.

 

As for responding to your thread privately, there was no request for feedback from me. I could post your entire PM with your permission, but basically it said I should point out that the Beginner/Intermediate forum needs to be a friendlier place, which in fact I did within 4 hours of your private message to me I think it was.

[mgoetze]

Perhaps you can discuss with the original poster of this thread about what kind of things might could happen if one of your threads get moderatored for inappropriate content.

 

Nothing very bad, apparently.

 

I am much more surprised that in this forum apparently a witty retort is considered much worse than the original insult.

[nige1]

I agree with Mgoetze that the it would be better if we posted to the appropriate forum. Perhaps moderators could prod us in the right direction by occasionally moving stuff around. In particular ...

• Twice as much is posted to Advanced and Expert Bridge as to General Bridge Discussion. Perhaps that reflects our tendency to over-rate ourselves.
• As gnasher points out, bidding-problem posters often assume 2/1 implicitly. These posters rarely bother to use their own SAYC and 2/1 Discussion forum.
• I would also like to see a forum dedicated to play and lead problems. Perhaps the Interesting Bridge Hands forum could be hijacked and renamed for that purpose.
• Is the Bridge-Poll on-line forum restricted to experts or can anybody play? :) Two months ago, I asked "Please provide a link to a topic that describes poll-format, how to participate, and a rough schedule. If, currently, there is no such topic, I would be grateful if somebody would provide one and Inquiry would pin it". Unfortunately I think I posted my query in the wrong place :( :( :(

[barmar]

I recently had a PM discussion with Fred about moving posts, after I pointed out that a bridge-related post didn't belong in WC.

 

In the specific case of the Advanced versus B/I forums, we need to be very careful. If someone posts in the Advanced forum, and you claim it doesn't belong there, you're effectively insulting the poster's bridge expertise. This is very different from saying that a bridge-related question belongs in the General Bridge forum rather than Water Cooler, or that a BBO question belongs in the BBO Support Forum rather than General Bridge.

[helene_t]

Personally I can't be bothered to argue about whether a particular post belongs in one forum or the other as long as political/religious rants are restricted to the water cooler. I can respect that other people use the forum differently but I almost always use the "new content" feature to find posts to read or reply to, and besides it is largely the same people who participate whether a thread is opened in the b/i forum or elsewhere.

 

A (to me) much more interesting question is whether moderation of abusive posts should be more or less active than it is now. I voted "no" because I think moderation is largely an unthankful task that I wouldn't want anyone to spend too much time on, nor would I want the forum members to focus too much on whether a particular post should be moderated, as opposed to just ignoring low-quality and rude posts and let the related threads die a silent death.

 

That said I think the forum could benefit from some personalized filtering based on up/down votes and maybe other kinds of user feedback. As long as this is not possible/desired, I am OK with the status quo.

[Phil]

I have been on the forums for a long time, and to be honest, I've never really noticed the specific forum that a thread is posted in. When I log on, I click, "View New Content". I skip over threads I'm not interested in, and read and post in threads that I am.

 

When I start a thread I try to put it into the proper forum.

 

What I would much rather see is some effective indexing or tagging of topics. An auction like:

 

1♣ - 1♠ - x - pass;

2♦

 

That we have discussed multiple times would be tagged reverses and negative doubles.

[hotShot]

That said I think the forum could benefit from some personalized filtering based on up/down votes and maybe other kinds of user feedback. As long as this is not possible/desired, I am OK with the status quo.

 

I think you can use the forum enemy feature to filter a specific poster.

[mgoetze]

I have been on the forums for a long time, and to be honest, I've never really noticed the specific forum that a thread is posted in. When I log on, I click, "View New Content". I skip over threads I'm not interested in, and read and post in threads that I am.

 

When I start a thread I try to put it into the proper forum.

 

What I would much rather see is some effective indexing or tagging of topics. An auction like:

 

1♣ - 1♠ - x - pass;

2♦

 

That we have discussed multiple times would be tagged reverses and negative doubles.

 

So, pick out the nicest discussion of it, tell me about it, and I will put it on my systems index.

[mgoetze]

In the specific case of the Advanced versus B/I forums, we need to be very careful. If someone posts in the Advanced forum, and you claim it doesn't belong there, you're effectively insulting the poster's bridge expertise.

 

Incidentally, I think these would better be split into Beginner, Intermediate/Advanced and Expert, and then I think people should be understanding when they are mistaken for non-experts... It would be useful to have well-respected members such as gnasher, FrancesHinden or mfa1010 taking care of this.

[matmat]

What about the people who post in the expert forum, because they want an experts opinion and not one of a fellow B/I player?

 

I assume you're just being difficult. If you go through the threads in the B/I forum you will find that there are many answers to questions by world class players. It's a little bit like a children's table at the holidays -- you still get food made by the adults, and they come to check on you from time to time, help you put the bib back on, but then they have their own table to go to to discuss adult matters.

[hotShot]

What about the people who post in the expert forum, because they want an experts opinion and not one of a fellow B/I player?

[Antraxxx]

You mistook the absences of a reply for ignoring.

I will willingly admit this. I must also admit that I don't read every forum (I only noticed this topic because it popped up in those "recent topics opened" box that shows all forums), so I would have greatly benefited from an answer, even if it were a link to where you already posted an answer.

Perhaps you can discuss with the original poster of this thread about what kind of things might could happen if one of your threads get moderatored for inappropriate content.

Being a bridge beginner doesn't mean I was born yesterday - just that my bridge playing career was. This isn't the first or only forum I participate in. So, I'm afraid I'm not sure what you're getting at.

As for responding to your thread privately, there was no request for feedback from me.

I don't understand why you think I was referring to any particular post. This is why it may have been better had you seen fit to reply to my PM. I always lurk for a while before registering to forums, to get a feel of what's acceptable and what isn't, and in a way absorb the atmosphere of the place. My lurking nearly discouraged me from ever registering or continuing to read the B/I forum. I kept seeing people insult each other and belittle other people's opinions, as well as give answers using slang terms that said nothing to me as a beginner (like using abbreviations for convention names, or acronyms that were not in the thread explaining acronyms). So, when I said I feel the B/I forum isn't very welcoming, I meant a general atmosphere that it's okay to give incomplete answers, to hijack threads and most prominently to insult other people's opinions. That's why I suggested (or rather, inquired about) the possibility of more moderation, at least in B/I.

[Elianna]

For the teal deer crowd: We need better organization, but the moderators are doing fine.

 

I voted no, and wanted to share my reasons, because I think that I have been a complainer in the past.

 

My main reason is that I think that the current moderators are doing very well at striking a balance between letting content develop, and keeping extremely detrimental posts to a minimum. I really appreciate that they have taken the requests for transparency seriously, and have a thread where they post any major editing/deleting of posts.

 

I also think that this public nominating of people to be moderators is really unnecessary. First off, I notice that the people nominated are who people think are the best players (with perhaps minimal number of ongoing arguments, as there is one that is missing and that is the only reason I could find for his omission), but I don't understand why someone needs to be a good player to be a good moderator. Maybe to be a good responder to questions in the play/bidding question forums, but not to watch discussion and be able to deal with people in a rational manner that is professional and fair.

 

Take Adam, for instance. Of course I think that he's the most rational, best bridge player in the world, but I could see that he would get fed up dealing with people as a moderator, and post much less on the forums as a result. And then talk to his wife more.¹. Anyway, you may want someone that reads the forums a lot, but is not as an active a participant as Adam (or Justin for that matter) but has been around for a long time and is known to be rational and have perspective. This is why I think that Ben is perfect. Yes, there was a time he was discussing a lot, but even then, he was mindful of his position as moderator and did not use that to bully others.

 

The one change that I think should be taken seriously is a reorganization of the forums. I believe that this was brought up a long time ago (where's gwynn when you need him?) but with all these different (and overlapping) categories, it gets rather confusing where to post certain topics. Say you have a problem that involves taking inference from the bidding to plan play. Do you post this in SAYC, because it involves understanding the auction? Do you post it in interesting bridge hands? Do you post it in the Beginning/Intermediate forum? Or maybe in offline bridge because it happened offline?

 

In this reorganization I would love to see a pairing down of different forums, and better descriptions of what should go in each forum, so that an OP can make better decisions about where to place threads.

¹ Please make him a moderator!

[mgoetze]

Being a bridge beginner doesn't mean I was born yesterday - just that my bridge playing career was. This isn't the first or only forum I participate in. So, I'm afraid I'm not sure what you're getting at.

 

I'll explain it to you. Today, Inquiry went out to of his way to delete a post I had made on Monday, i.e. 3 days ago, and sent me a private message about how he had increased my "warn level" to 1 and I would be kicked off the forums if my warn level reached 10. I don't really care about this - personally I think I have made enough contributions to this forum that anyone should be able to judge whether my contributions are welcome or not without a "warn level", and my girlfriend will be very happy if a moderator decides that my contributions are not welcome. However, while Inquiry removed my reply, he did not remove the insult which prompted that reply, and I consider that very bad form.

[mgoetze]

First off, I notice that the people nominated are who people think are the best players (with perhaps minimal number of ongoing arguments, as there is one that is missing and that is the only reason I could find for his omission), but I don't understand why someone needs to be a good player to be a good moderator. Maybe to be a good responder to questions in the play/bidding question forums, but not to watch discussion and be able to deal with people in a rational manner that is professional and fair.

 

I did not nominate the people whom I considered to be the best bridge players on the forum (no offense, guys :) ), but rather those whose replies I always consider rational, level-headed and fair. I also excluded some people of whom I suspected that they would not be interested. I suspect there is a correlation between this property and bridge-playing ability.

 

Of course, people who don't post as much have not had as much opportunity to impress me with their level-headedness. I mean I could nominate Elianna, but even she has over 1000 posts. ;)

 

The one change that I think should be taken seriously is a reorganization of the forums. I believe that this was brought up a long time ago (where's gwynn when you need him?) but with all these different (and overlapping) categories, it gets rather confusing where to post certain topics. Say you have a problem that involves taking inference from the bidding to plan play. Do you post this in SAYC, because it involves understanding the auction? Do you post it in interesting bridge hands? Do you post it in the Beginning/Intermediate forum? Or maybe in offline bridge because it happened offline?

 

In this reorganization I would love to see a pairing down of different forums, and better descriptions of what should go in each forum, so that an OP can make better decisions about where to place threads.

 

I would be willing to put effort into making a good suggestion... if only there were any hint that it might actually be considered...

[Elianna]

I wouldn't want to do it, but thank you. But yes, I think that someone like me or Helene or even Matt, or others would do a better job than at least one of the people mentioned at some point above in one of the various posts. And yes, I'm doing something that I decried, of publicly nominating people, but I'm not saying that these are the only people, just using them to make a point that personality is more important than bridge skills or perceived bridge skills.

 

Making suggestions about reorganization is really easy. Complimenting them are VERY HARD, because whole pages of threads would have to be moved, so someone would have to go through them, and decide what to do about it. I am not the kind of person that is normally averse to making "helpful suggestions", but as I am not willing to volunteer the numerous hours of work to implement them, I am hesitant to get upset when others don't want to do that work.

 

I also remember several years ago, when I volunteered to do something helpful on the forums. Dealing with certain *people* reminded me that my time is best spent in other ways.

 

I did not nominate the people whom I considered to be the best bridge players on the forum (no offense, guys :) ), but rather those whose replies I always consider rational, level-headed and fair. I also excluded some people of whom I suspected that they would not be interested. I suspect there is a correlation between this property and bridge-playing ability.

 

Of course, people who don't post as much have not had as much opportunity to impress me with their level-headedness. I mean I could nominate Elianna, but even she has over 1000 posts. ;)

 

 

 

I would be willing to put effort into making a good suggestion... if only there were any hint that it might actually be considered...

[matmat]

Oh. I didn't catch the whole nominating thing. Hmmm... I'd like to nominate santa, the easter bunny, the tooth fairy, happy, sleepy, doc, papa smurf, gargamel, and roger rabbit.

 

what were we nominating for, anyway?

[matmat]

On a more serious note, (and, having now read some of the B/I threads in question), I don't think it would be a terrible idea to bar certain members from posting in the B/I forum. I won't name any names, but with an obvious lack of tact, dubious bridge knowledge, and a very quick trigger on personal insults, I think we all know who they are ;) ::hides::

[Antraxxx]

I'll explain it to you. Today, Inquiry went out to of his way to delete a post I had made on Monday -snip-

Thanks. Ironically, that's another example of the "Meckwell would punt with gazilli" style of answer that's plaguing B/I. I think it's a good guideline to assume people aren't aware of everything that goes on in these boards, and to bother giving an answer in consideration for those of us still new to drawing inferences. If it's of any interest to you, Inquiry, I had no idea of whatever history you have with mgoetze and thought that part of your post was a sort of vague warning that my own posts are out of line, which was pretty baffling.