Partner opens in 3rd...

[mgoetze]

[hv=pc=n&s=sq74haj3dk83ct542&d=s&v=0&b=11&a=pp1d1n]133|200[/hv]

 

Pickup game, your call?

[manudude03]

Double, sounds like a thread in the IBLF.

[mgoetze]

I would have hoped you would have figured out that you're not supposed to mention that until later.

[han]

Double.

[jillybean]

Pass

[gwnn]

x then 2♦ over partner's 2♣ bid

[cherdano]

Double.

[JLOGIC]

Agree with jillybean, pass, because:

 

1) I do not have a good lead/suit/fit. If I blow a trick and we have 21 vs 19 HCP or whatever, they will probably be a favorite.

 

2) I have no spot cards except the CT. In a 1N X contract this is very important.

 

3) Partner is third seat white. RHO is facing a passed hand. It is just bridge that partner can open light here. This is not even a psyche if it is 8+ points right? Most people are also more conservative overcalling 1N opposite a passed partner, and won't do it with like a bad 15. As such, I should, based on bridge logic, double more conservatively than if partner was say first seat red. Thus some hands must exist where it is right to double if partner opens in first seat but not here. This hand is not just a slam dunk OMG I HAVE THEM double. I feel that this is fine as a hand I would double opposite a 1st seat opener but pass opposite a third white opener. I don't usually double with a random 9 count opposite a first seat opener (ok I don't ever), and this is just an awful/random 10 count.

 

4) I cannot double any runout, and since whatever suit they run to is splitting (or our stack is Txxx), them running will probably be sucessful or at least lead to us not being able to double it. Doubling makes it much easier for them to run, especially if they're going to land in clubs, and since I don't want this to happen it is perfectly fine to just pass. Most of the time, ime, the opps run if they have a yarborough, excluding maybe 4333 (but even if LHO is 4333, RHO might run). They only sit when they have some values and are likely to make it. Of course this is opponent dependendant, but it is my opinion that people double 1N too much in general and don't consider what is going to happen if/when they run and the fact that if they don't run they will likely make.

 

5) Did I mention I have to lead?!

 

Of course there are reasons for doubling (we're not doubling them into game and we might just have them by the nuts and be getting 500 or something which is a big win), I am just presenting the case for passing.

[nigel_k]

Partner should either have: a normal opening bid, a good suit that he wants led, or some shape. I doubt he has a good suit since I have the king and RHO has a stopper and if he has some shape he can pull my double. I would be more worried if my diamonds were xxx since then he might have AQJx and a flat ten count or something. So I would always double at IMPs because I can live with -180 instead of -90 and there are many ways to gain: we could have a game or pick up a good penalty. If they are vul at matchpoints I would also double to try to get 200. Non vul at matchpoints I would consider pass but might still double. But if I did choose to pass I would have some choice words for anyone who accused me of fielding a psyche.

[JLOGIC]

But if I did choose to pass I would have some choice words for anyone who accused me of fielding a psyche.

 

Amen.

[mcphee]

Double, not wonderful but such is life. I have an ok hand and do not buy into the weak 3rd hand stuff. Although the case here is had partner passed they still open 1NT, I am not amongst the group of players who open in 3rd because it is their turn, especially a minor which makes it very easy to overcall a major. To quote Al Roth, "players often miss what they are giving up opening weak in third seat."

[whereagles]

justin, I'm all for giving pard some slack in 3rd seat openers, but this is too much. This is my chance to show I have a decent passed hand and I'm going to use it, even thought I agree it's a double-edged sword.

 

As for the lead, a diamond seems fine. If pard has a decent opener, this is as good as anything. And if he's weakish, he'll at least have strong diamonds. By the way, if pard is really weakish he can pull out my dbl into his likely diamond suit.

[P_Marlowe]

X, wtp.

 

I dont care, if the opener was in 3rd seat, and if p likes to open

light in 3rd seat - fine, but than hopefully he knowes, that light

3rd seat openers are only sensible, if a major gets opened.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Phil]

Double. In spite of the great post by Justin, I think there are some other things to consider:

 

Partner can have a lot of different types of hands, and if we pass, there's a good chance 1N will end the auction. I don't know that is such a great thing for us, especially if partner has some shape, but not a big hand. There's 5-6 IMPs at stake for a part score swing.

 

Double could be a HUGE winner, if partner has slightly more that a minimum, and LHO could be sweating bullets as we consider our call. I don't know partner is going to be that interested in reopening with a balanced 14 if I pass and

collect our 150.

 

Could they run? Maybe, but we are flat, our RHO is flat, so I don't know that LHO has shape that would cause him to bid over a double, but pass if I pass. And if they do scramble out, we might have a fit anyway and can compete further. Or they could still be in trouble.

 

Partner could be light, but he did open a minor after all, so he shouldn't be disgusting.

 

I hate leading from this hand, but I think I'm good enough so that even if I blow a trick, we are still OK. For the record I am tracking a diamond - if pard did open light, its presumably because he had a real diamond suit.

 

If they make, 180 is only 3 IMPs. If I beat it 1, it is 2 IMPs. Nothing to get excited about here - its some of the big gains and the double part score swings I don't want to give up on. Furthermore, unless partner is ghastly, I don;t see much downside to doubling.

[Gerben42]

I understand Pass but I would always Double. Partner will get the right picture from my bid and will know what to do. In other words, agree with whereagels.

 

Both sides are white so assuming IMPs the -180 (or even -280!) weighs up against getting some juicy penalties. Partner won't ever be able to act again on a scattered 13.

[rduran1216]

i completely agree with phil.

 

10+ HCP in this spot and not dbling is obscene to me. If partner opened a lousy 11 in 3rd seat without a decent diamond suit nor major suit strength he and I need to have a serious talk about ideology. passing with this holding is very anti % and wreaks to high heaven. Justin you make good pts about the lead and lack of spots, but do i really expect flattish whats at worst 21-19 and could be 24-16 with all pts in one hand to be odds on for the short side making?

[awm]

Double for me also.

 

It's certainly possible that partner has a balanced minimum or sub-minimum, and I make a bad lead, and they make.

 

Against that, partner could have a bit of shape and my double allows him to compete, or partner could have a balanced max and we get 1NTX for a number.

 

The apparent diamond situation (I have king, RHO seems to have stopper) argues against partner being super-light. 1NTX is not a game and they are unlikely to be able to rewind.

 

With these in mind, I think double helps more than it hurts. Sure I'd like to have a better hand, but with how light people open in first chair these days, something like a "nice 11 with a good lead" might be too much to wait for.

[mikeh]

I agree with Phil.

 

As for their running....if LHO has a 5 card major, he's running anyway. Maybe he can run to clubs successfully, but partner didn't open a major, which he might have done with a 4 card suit and a minimum opening, so he probably has some clubs as does RHO....it is unlikely that LHO has 5+ clubs...not impossible but unlikely.

 

And it's not as if LHO is assured of running successfully if he has a 4-4 two suiter of some kind.

 

Style matters, I suppose...but I don't like weak opening bids of 1minor in 3rd seat with an indifferent suit, and so long as partner thinks the same way, the auction tells us his suit is not strong, and hence he has a real opener.

[JLOGIC]

 

Style matters, I suppose...but I don't like weak opening bids of 1minor in 3rd seat with an indifferent suit, and so long as partner thinks the same way, the auction tells us his suit is not strong, and hence he has a real opener.

 

Yes I totally agree with this. The common feeling seems to be that a 1 of a minor opening in 3rd hand should be a classical "good hand or good suit." This is how I learned too. Personally I think a 1 of a major opener should be sounder than a 1 of a minor opener, partner might go crazy if you open 1 of a major but is unlikely to if you open 1 of a minor. I rarely (ok almost never) open a 4 card major in 3rd seat for this reason, preferring to just open a minor if I'm going to open light.

 

Whatever you play none of this is fielding a psyche IMO, either style is reasonable.

[Phil]

One more thing to consider:

 

When you do double in this position, partner should be playing you for full values, and not something speculative. Therefore, if they do run to 2m (diamonds might be in play for them, although its unlikely), I think partner should double with the 14 us doublers are hoping for holding something like Hxx. Doubling 2M is trickier, because of the potential for -470.

 

I haven't read the IBLF thread, but pass is not fielding anything. Its a close decision, and as we can see, sensible arguments have been made for pass and x.

[Free]

Dbl wtp. If partner opened light he'll take it out, otherwise we'll penalize opps.