Over (1C)-p-(p)-1S; (5C!)-p-(p)-?

[inquiry]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakt975haq52d54c5&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1cpp1s5cpp]133|200|Matchpoints.

West is a very good player. For the sake of this question (and reality actually), lets imagine he is world class. In fact, let's pretend he is a world champion (well, we don't have too, he was).

 

What is your call[/hv]

[Hanoi5]

I'd show my second suit and hope I don't push them to a makeable slam. I suppose I should have asked who East was, but I didn't. My first thought was pass, but I just can't get a handle of that green piece of paper.

[mike gill]

I would pass. Surely LHO isn't sure of making 5♣ opposite a hand that couldn't respond. I see no reason to believe I'm making something with partner unable to peep over 1♣ and unable to double 5♣. Both 5X and 5♣ making seems like a huge long shot and that's the main worry with not bidding (LHO has a good hand so 5X will surely be doubled our way). As for doubling them, it's possible 5♣ will go down more than one, but it seems unlikely, so I see no reason to hit it.

[dake50]

I've done this 5C jump often.

Close to making; as low as sure 4S makes sacrifice.

Often even 3+DT fail to double.

[mikeh]

what the heck was 1♠?

 

For those who say that we shouldn't now double because partner couldn't peep over 5♣ consider that we have not come close to describing our hand.

 

Our playing values and suit make a 2♠call a conservative balance....announcing a solid opening hand with a decent 6 card suit. I can understand a reluctance to commit to spades while holding AQxx in the other major, but we don't 'solve' that by misbidding with 1♠...we double and then bid spades or, if we deem it appropriate, by raising hearts should partner introduce them.

 

So we have a LOT more than we've promised...we can't just go quietly into that good night via pass. Nor can we, imo, venture all by ourselves to the 5-level. No...we do what every expert does when he doesn't want to pass and doesn't know what to bid....we double.

 

Sure, our WC LHO may wrap this around our neck, but I'm not settling for +100 instead of +450 or +300.

 

Partner can't have a hand on which he'd pull to 5♦, which is the only other major downside risk...any such hand would have overcalled 1, 2 or 3 diamonds.

 

In fairness, had we balanced with 2♠, LHO would still have bid 5♣ and partner might still have passed, and we'd be worried about what to do. I'd still double, but I could understand pass. In the meantime, partner might have been able to contribute to the auction.

 

As for going -550 rather than -400, sometimes the bear bites you.

[mfa1010]

What mikeh said.

[Phil]

Double. I'm a good player. My partner's even better and will pull sometimes when its right. 5♣ sounds really desperate to me - for anyone.

 

Agree with MikeH's 2♠ idea. We would be (rather partner would be) in a much stronger position over 5♣.

[AlexJonson]

I'll take a chance that the auction may not be typical, but the contract is - so pass.

 

Anything else accepts a different risk.

[inquiry]

what the heck was 1♠?

 

For those who say that we shouldn't now double because partner couldn't peep over 5♣ consider that we have not come close to describing our hand.

 

Our playing values and suit make a 2♠call a conservative balance....announcing a solid opening hand with a decent 6 card suit. I can understand a reluctance to commit to spades while holding AQxx in the other major, but we don't 'solve' that by misbidding with 1♠...we double and then bid spades or, if we deem it appropriate, by raising hearts should partner introduce them.

 

So we have a LOT more than we've promised...we can't just go quietly into that good night via pass. Nor can we, imo, venture all by ourselves to the 5-level. No...we do what every expert does when he doesn't want to pass and doesn't know what to bid....we double.

 

Sure, our WC LHO may wrap this around our neck, but I'm not settling for +100 instead of +450 or +300.

 

Partner can't have a hand on which he'd pull to 5♦, which is the only other major downside risk...any such hand would have overcalled 1, 2 or 3 diamonds.

 

In fairness, had we balanced with 2♠, LHO would still have bid 5♣ and partner might still have passed, and we'd be worried about what to do. I'd still double, but I could understand pass. In the meantime, partner might have been able to contribute to the auction.

 

As for going -550 rather than -400, sometimes the bear bites you.

 

I agree 2♠ is the right bid -- however -- this was an individual event and I didn't feel like risking again having partner think 2♠ was weak. So I bid 1♠ on purpose, with that concern in mind. No insult meant to my partner, but other individuals have taught me to go slow here with random one hand partners.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakt975haq52d54c5&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=1cpp1s5cpp]133|200|Matchpoints. West is a very good player. For the sake of this question (and reality actually), lets imagine he is world class. In fact, let's pretend he is a world champion (well, we don't have too, he was). What is your call[/hv]

My guesses: _X = 10, _P = 9, 5♥ = 6, 5♠ = 5.

[MrAce]

....I can understand a reluctance to commit to spades while holding AQxx in the other major, but we don't 'solve' that by misbidding with 1♠...we double and then bid spades or, if we deem it appropriate, by raising hearts should partner introduce them...

 

 

2♠ in theory shows 1 suiter and there are some folks who believe it shouldn't be bid even with a 4 card side minor, due to 6-4 hands has much more potentials than 6322 or 6331, and as u stated may miss ♥here. Especially 4-4 ♥.

 

1♠ or DBL would be my choice. As Phil said, if we started with 2♠, we would be in much better shape now, and as u stated, i agree, pd has lot less info about our hand when started 1♠ and we would be in much better shape have we had started 2♠. However i don't think we start our bidding, thinking that opener will go waco all the way upto 5 level in his minor.

 

For example, starting 1♠, if 1♣ opener was silent and pd had a hand with 4 cards ♥ and 8-9 hcp, we would be able to find it, where he could have passed over 2♠ with a stiff, or can bid 3 NT or 4♠ where 4♥ is cold and others has no play. Then we would be pointing fingers to 2♠ bid perhaps.

 

Don't get me wrong, i am not saying we shd bid 1♠, all i am trying to say is, it ain't as bad as u guys think it is.I believe the judgement on 1♠ call here is affected by totally unexpected 5♣ call.

 

This hand really made me think a lot, between DBL and 1♠. So i decided to take some more opinions from other people, and asked what would they balance with; Steve Robinson 1♠ bidder, likes DBL too but worried that pd may pass, totally disagrees with 2♠, Magnuss(Iceking in BBO) bids 1♠ DBL is his 2nd choice, thinks 2♠ is wrong. Steve Weinstein DOUBLES, thinks 1♠ is too weak in balancing seat and 2♠ is not his option.

 

Mike and Phil, your opinions are also as important as those i listed to me, since i really enjoy reading u folks and it helps me to catch up with this game after almost a decade break from it. My point is 1♠ is among the reasonable choices, and in fact, this hand has all the requirements of 1♠ overcall in balancing seat IN THEORY.

 

After 5♣, all pass to me, regretting that i didn't start DBL or 2♠, now i HAVE TO double imo. 5♣ bidder, regardless of his name is guessing. Actually his bid tells me more about my pd's hand than his, which is we are either making or very close to make a 4 major game. Also i believe these VERY FAMOUS players recieve much less double than they are supposed to, due to their reputation as a card player, and they damn well know that.

[mikeh]

2♠ in theory shows 1 suiter and there are some folks who believe it shouldn't be bid even with a 4 card side minor, due to 6-4 hands has much more potentials than 6322 or 6331, and as u stated may miss ♥here. Especially 4-4 ♥.

 

1♠ or DBL would be my choice. As Phil said, if we started with 2♠, we would be in much better shape now, and as u stated, i agree, pd has lot less info about our hand when started 1♠ and we would be in much better shape have we had started 2♠. However i don't think we start our bidding, thinking that opener will go waco all the way upto 5 level in his minor.

 

For example, starting 1♠, if 1♣ opener was silent and pd had a hand with 4 cards ♥ and 8-9 hcp, we would be able to find it, where he could have passed over 2♠ with a stiff, or can bid 3 NT or 4♠ where 4♥ is cold and others has no play. Then we would be pointing fingers to 2♠ bid perhaps.

 

Don't get me wrong, i am not saying we shd bid 1♠, all i am trying to say is, it ain't as bad as u guys think it is.I believe the judgement on 1♠ call here is affected by totally unexpected 5♣ call.

 

This hand really made me think a lot, between DBL and 1♠. So i decided to take some more opinions from other people, and asked what would they balance with; Steve Robinson 1♠ bidder, likes DBL too but worried that pd may pass, totally disagrees with 2♠, Magnuss(Iceking in BBO) bids 1♠ DBL is his 2nd choice, thinks 2♠ is wrong. Steve Weinstein DOUBLES, thinks 1♠ is too weak in balancing seat and 2♠ is not his option.

 

Mike and Phil, your opinions are also as important as those i listed to me, since i really enjoy reading u folks and it helps me to catch up with this game after almost a decade break from it. My point is 1♠ is among the reasonable choices, and in fact, this hand has all the requirements of 1♠ overcall in balancing seat IN THEORY.

 

After 5♣, all pass to me, regretting that i didn't start DBL or 2♠, now i HAVE TO double imo. 5♣ bidder, regardless of his name is guessing. Actually his bid tells me more about my pd's hand than his, which is we are either making or very close to make a 4 major game. Also i believe these VERY FAMOUS players recieve much less double than they are supposed to, due to their reputation as a card player, and they damn well know that.

 

I don't know how you expect to find a 4-4 heart fit after 1♠ when partner has 8-9 hcp. Heck, I don't know how to find a 5=4 fit when he has that holding (and, yes, there are hands on which one would not choose to overcall with 5 hearts and 8-9 hcp). My expectation is that partner will pass with all such hands lacking values for a spade raise....and if he can raise spades, this is not the sort of hand on which the 4-4 heart fit offers much assurance of an extra trick compared to the 6-3 spade fit.

 

No, if you want to cater to finding hearts, you start with a balancing double.

 

As for the balancing 1♠, this hand is way too strong for that action, imo. It's not about catering to a 5♣ bounce....it's about keeping the auction alive when partner has a moderate but well-fitting hand....Qx K10x xxxx xxxx is enough to make game playable...I'm not saying we get to 4♠ after a balancing 2♠, but the point is that 2♠ shows a better hand and a better suit than 1♠. You cannot logically play a method in which the two calls cover the same hand/suit.

 

As for the notion that 2♠ denies a 4 card side suit, such was true of weak two bids. However, from the reading I have done over the years, that notion has all but vanished from high-level bridge. In my initial thread I suggested, and still suggest, that the 'solution' to this, if you are a believer in it, is to double...bidding 1♠ is no answer at all.

[Phil]

Timo, I am glad you value my opinion as high as Weinstein's or Robinsons. Hell, or even MikeH :) It will help me win postmortems when we play (more in '11 I hope):P

 

Anyway, I don't ever see us finding a heart fit after one spade, although I think you can make a very sensible argument that the auction:

 

1♣ - pass - pass - 1♠;

pass - 2♥

 

should be four pieces (or five bad), since advancer did not overcall initially. Similarly, 3♥ over 2♠ should be the same kind of grope. Passed hand bidding is a strange animal and I think certain calls should be played differently.

 

I wouldn't think that any intermediate jump overcall would deny four cards somewhere else, but I confess I've never given it much thought.

[cherdano]

I am not so sure about doubling. Parter will almost always pass (if he takes out to 5♠, that will probably be good, but as MikeH said there is almost no hand that would take out to 5 of a red suit now that couldn't bid over 1♣).

 

LHO has a very good idea how many tricks he will be making in clubs, and we don't have any surprises for him. Doubling for down one will hardly ain matchpoints: we may be beating other tables anyway when it's down one, but if he really has game in his own hand, then everybody will be in 5♣ and doubling costs a lot.

So if we double, we are betting that LHO bid 5♣ as an advance sacrifice over our game - this is the only reason he would bid to 5♣ down 2. But such a hand would be light in hcp, leaving quite a few hcp and thus a "responsive" double for partner.

 

I think pass is right.

[cherdano]

About our first bid: I do think 2♠ is fine, but one should be realistic that this gives up on finding a 4-4 heart fit in most auctions (even if it doesn't striclty deny 4 hearts). As Mike said, if you want to cater to the 4-4 heart fit, start with double.

(Both double and 2♠ are better than 1♠, I agree.)

[gnasher]

We can still find a heart fit after 1♠ - it might go

1

♣

pass pass 1

♠

pass 1NT pass 2

♥

but I'd have doubled 1♣, because I think we're too strong for 2♠.

[JLOGIC]

I don't understand the talk of balancing with 2S when we have AQxx of hearts.

 

Cherdano says that realistically it gives up on finding a 4-4 heart fit, what is the point of giving up on a not-so-unlikely strain in a major suit with the first bid of our auction when it's up to 1C so far? Personally my goal is usually to find my major suit fits/games. But I guess we are better placed if LHO is about to bid 5C!

 

I also don't understand talks of 1S giving up on hearts. Gee we're up to the 1 level, how hard can it be to find our 4-4 fit still? We can bid spades...and then hearts!

 

This also could be possible after 2S, but since partner is not going to check on a 4-4 heart fit over a 2S balance (which basically denies 4 hearts to me), he will often bid 3N, or 4S, or 3S with just a doubleton (or possibly a stiff!), and even if he bids 3C or something, a 3H bid by us now would be more like a stopper. If we bid 1S and partner bid 1N, I think bidding 2H would be horrible, but we could bid 2C and then hearts later. Partner who knows we didn't balance with 2C to begin with will think we are likely 6-4. If partner bid 2C or 2D over 1S, we could bid 2H. Basically no matter what the auction is after 1S if we bid hearts next, that will show hearts.

 

And there is of course the problem that 2S is much more likely to get passed out than 1S, which makes us less likely to be able to make another bid in general, which is bad when we have a heart fit.

 

All this said, I would double because our hand is worth a double, but not because I am worried much about missing hearts after 1S.

[han]

I would have misbid with 1S at my first opportunity. I think it is better than 2S and much better than double.

[JLOGIC]

As far as our second bid I would pass. I don't see beating them 2 very often, and I think LHO will often have 8-4 in the minors and a strong hand or whatever. I don't think partner will ever bid over our double of 5C.

 

Down 1 undoubled might be bad at MP but I think they are going to make it a lot so hopefully that is more common, and if it is down 1 hopefully people don't bid 5C and we do alright. I do think it's much more common that the field will bid 5C if LHO has it made in his hand than if he doesn't.

[JLOGIC]

I don't know how you expect to find a 4-4 heart fit after 1♠ when partner has 8-9 hcp. Heck, I don't know how to find a 5=4 fit when he has that holding (and, yes, there are hands on which one would not choose to overcall with 5 hearts and 8-9 hcp). My expectation is that partner will pass with all such hands lacking values for a spade raise....and if he can raise spades, this is not the sort of hand on which the 4-4 heart fit offers much assurance of an extra trick compared to the 6-3 spade fit.

 

Even if partner is passing with those hands, the opps are extremely likely to bid something themselves. They have 19 points and we have 3 cards in the minors. Most people aren't just eager to sell out to 1S w/w at MP. If that happens, we can back into the heart fit.

 

I don't know why I'm arguing for 1S though since as I said I think doubling is just the right bid based on our values.

[han]

I don't know why I'm arguing for 1S though since as I said I think doubling is just the right bid based on our values.

 

Perhaps my convincing arguments made you think otherwise.

[MrAce]

@ Mikeh;

 

1♣-pas -pas-1♠

pas- 1NT-pas-2♥

 

1♣-pas pas-1♠

pas-2NT-pas-3♥

 

1♣-pas-pas-1♠

3♣-dbl-4♣ or pass -4♥

 

 

And it is not about when 6-3 ♠ and 4-4 ♥ are available, but when there is 6-2 ♠& 4-4♥ and played 4♠ or when there is 6-1 ♠&4-4♥ and played 3 NT, it may hurt.

 

Perhaps, we should think of hands, where 1♠ may cause issues (except opener goes waco at high level). And compare it to 2♠ bid where it may cause to miss ♥ fit.

 

I still don't know % 100 which one i like more, dbl or 1♠. But I also still believe a good 6 card major suit, when dressed with a good 4 cards side suit, is too big for an intermediate balancing jump overcall.

 

@Inquiry: So who was that player? Who did we double ? And is he making it ? :P