Responding to 22-24 NT

[mgoetze]

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Parter showed 22-24, what's your plan?

 

If you bid 3♣:

 

Partner will bid 3♦, showing no 4-card major

 

 

(Matchpoints but please specify what you would do differently at IMPs)

[han]

I would bid Stayman (or puppet stayman) to see if partner has 4 hearts. If so, I'd bid 3S (setting hearts as trump and showing slam interest), and then bid 4NT (RKC). If partner shows 3 keycards then I bid 5NT to show that we have all keycards and invite a grand slam. If partner can't bid 7 over that then I'll bid 6NT.

 

If partner does not have 4 hearts or does not have 3 keycards then I'll bid 6NT.

[whereagles]

Just a plain 6NT.

 

We got 34-36 but the hand is very flattish, so 6 will probably be the limit.

[dcohio]

6NT.

 

Even with a 4-4 heart fit, at MP I'm in 6NT with 34-36 combined and 4333 shape. I'm skipping stayman here, giving opponents as little information as possible.

[Lurpoa]

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Parter showed 22-24, what's your plan?

 

If you bid 3♣:

 

Partner will bid 3♦, showing no 4-card major

 

 

(Matchpoints but please specify what you would do differently at IMPs)

 

6NT

 

what else George?

 

 

 

[mgoetze]

I was just making sure I wouldn't be the only one to miss this 96% grand. ;)

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sat8haqj2dj73ct86&n=sj75hk7dakq42cakq&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=2cp2dp2np3cp3dp6nppp]266|200[/hv]

[Phil]

First, start playing Kokish or figure out a way to trim down these three point ranges. 22-24 is unmanageable.

 

I would like some method like 4♠ to discover partner's suits and to figure out if partner has a doubleton.

 

Barring that I will bid 6N over 3♦. If partner has hearts, then I'll try 3♠ and hope to learn something useful.

[mgoetze]

First, start playing Kokish or figure out a way to trim down these three point ranges. 22-24 is unmanageable.

 

Sure, but that wasn't really the problem here, was it? ;) Feel free to describe your methods and how they would have led to 7 on this hand.

[mtvesuvius]

Sure, but that wasn't really the problem here, was it? ;) Feel free to describe your methods and how they would have led to 7 on this hand.

Don't tempt us... Me & Owen would have found it by relaying [We'd be able to find the HJ, and possibly the DJ, too early for me to figure that out]

 

In a 2/1 type system, there really isn't much way to find it, a BAL 12 facing 22-23 or 22-24 isn't ever going to make a grand try... I'd have bid 6N over 2N.

[mgoetze]

Don't tempt us... Me & Owen would have found it by relaying [We'd be able to find the HJ, and possibly the DJ, too early for me to figure that out]

 

Yes obviously you can get there over a strong 1♣ opening, but if anyone has methods that would get there over 2NT I'd be much more interested in that. ;)

[Cyberyeti]

Yes obviously you can get there over a strong 1♣ opening, but if anyone has methods that would get there over 2NT I'd be much more interested in that. ;)

Given the choice I have, I'd open it as a 23-24 rather than 20-22, but still not convinced I'd get there.

[Phil]

Sure, but that wasn't really the problem here, was it? ;) Feel free to describe your methods and how they would have led to 7 on this hand.

 

I would not expect a lot of pairs to get to 7 here, and I never represented I could get to 7. As a matter of fact I specifically said I wouldn't. But I like to snipe at bad methods, and sorry if you got caught in the crosshairs :P

 

2N (and 2N rebids) are not called slam killers for nothing. Even if I made an aggressive upgrade with the nice 22, someone would have to take a position to bid 7.

 

@mtvesuvius: please show me your auction. If the 4333 relays, its possible, but if the strong hand starts relaying how on earth are you going to uncover the ♥J?

[mtvesuvius]

@mtvesuvius: please show me your auction. If the 4333 relays, its possible, but if the strong hand starts relaying how on earth are you going to uncover the ♥J?

1♣ - 1♦ [15+ Any; Any GF]

1♥ - 1N [GF relay - 12+ AKQ points or any hand that wants to take charge; BAL or any 4441]

2♣ - 2♦ [Relay; 4♥, may have 4♠ or 44(41)]

2♥ - 3♦ [Relay; 3433]

3♥ - 3♠ [Relay; Minimum (5-7 AKQ points)]

4♣ - 4♠ [Relay; 7 AKQ points, 0/2 top ♥ honours]

4N - 5♣ [Relay; 0/2 top ♣ honours]

5♦ - 5♥ [Relay; 0/2 top ♦ honours (N now knows Axx AQxx xxx xxx)]

5♠ - 6♦ [Relay; 1/3 top ♠ honours, ♥J, no ♣J, last relay is at 5N, so relays end]

7N - P [1♠, 4♥, 5♦, 3♣, admittedly not room to know about ♦J, but still a very reasonable grand...; OK]

 

Only 19 bids :(

[MickyB]

First, start playing Kokish or figure out a way to trim down these three point ranges. 22-24 is unmanageable.

 

Eh? What method do you suggest?

 

Assuming you aren't playing a multi or something, I can only assume you are advocating

 

20-21 2NT opening

22-23 through Kokish

24+ opens 2C and rebids 2NT

 

This hardly seems ideal when you pick up 24+, although that will be infrequently.

 

The truly bad methods on display in this thread are Cyberyeti's, whose three-point 2NT bid is much more frequent than OP's. For some reason, this is completely standard in the UK.

[fromageGB]

20-21 2NT opening

22-23 through Kokish

24+ opens 2C and rebids 2NT

I like to play it the other way, "the more bids the stronger".

20-21 2NT

22-23 2♣ 2♦ 2NT

24-25 2♣ 2♦ 2♥ 2♠ 2NT

That's easier to remember !

 

I agree with you about the appalling British 2NT. I think it's because people here seem welded to the idea that it's best to open at the 2 level if you have 8 tricks, and of course it has to be stronger to play Kokish.

 

And the reason people play 8 trick 2 bids is that they have no way of opening 1 and making a GF continuation. Acol has a lot to answer for. It really surprises me the EBU continues to encourage teaching it.

[mgoetze]

Indeed 20-21/22-24 makes a lot more sense than 20-22/23-24.

 

Anyway there is a tradeoff here in general. Sure, playing 20-21/22-23/24-25 (the last via 2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠-2NT) is better if you actually have one of these ranges.

If you were to play, say, 20-22/23-25/26-28 instead... well you would certainly appreciate it if you actually held a 27 HCP balanced hand. And of course Kokish involves

some tradeoffs when you actually hold the heart hand, etc.

[Cyberyeti]

The truly bad methods on display in this thread are Cyberyeti's, whose three-point 2NT bid is much more frequent than OP's. For some reason, this is completely standard in the UK.

I actually prefer to play something more like good 19-21 so a 2.5 point range, 22-23, 24-25 etc but as Mr B says, what I posted is completely standard in the UK.

[Phil]

Its a function of frequency for me.

 

2N = 20-21

2♣...2N = 22-23

2♣...2♥...2N = 24-25

2♣...2♥...3N = 25-26

2♣...2♥...4N = 27-28

 

I've never played the Kokish rebid -> 2N as 24+. I don't see how its playable TBH.

[matmat]

Its a function of frequency for me.

 

2N = 20-21

2♣...2N = 22-23

2♣...2♥...2N = 24-25

2♣...2♥...3N = 25-26

2♣...2♥...4N = 27-28

 

I've never played the Kokish rebid -> 2N as 24+. I don't see how its playable TBH.

what's 2♣...3N?

[matmat]

2N-6N seems like the value auction, but P often has weird shapes for their 2♣-2N auctions (stiff aces some places, and the like). I'd probably at least stayman to check for a ♥ fit.

[blackshoe]

"standard" in the US (according to Max Hardy, anyway):

 

12-14 open 1x, rebid 1NT

15-17 open 1NT

18-19 open 1x, rebid 2NT

20-21 open 2NT

22-24 open 2C, rebid 2NT

25-27 open 2C, rebid 3NT

28-30 open 2C, rebid 4NT

 

This is the structure my regular partner insists on playing. :-(

 

I much prefer:

 

12-15- open 1x, rebid 1NT

15+-18- open 1NT

18+-20 open 1x, rebid 2NT

21-22 open 2NT

23-24 open 2C, rebid 2NT

25-26 open 2C, rebid 2H (Kokish)

27-28 open 2C, rebid 3NT

 

or (playing Romex):

 

12-16 open 1x, rebid 1NT

17-18 open 1x, rebid 2NT

19-20 open 1NT, rebid 2NT

21-22 open 2D, rebid 2NT

23-24 open 2C, rebid 2NT

25-26 2NT (or use Kokish after opening 2C, and use the 2NT opening for something else)

27-28 open 2D, rebid 3NT

29-30 open 2C, rebid 3NT (F to 4NT)

[fromageGB]

I've never played the Kokish rebid -> 2N as 24+. I don't see how its playable TBH.

I am sure 24+ has something going for it, if you agree it is a GF regardless of partner's hand. Over 2NT there is no problem in finding the normally right contract.

 

I actually according to agreement play 2♣ 3NT as 26+ ( I have never had it that I can recall) but I don't like it. Very difficult to agree a suit, etc, unless you play your normal puppet etc and 4NT is to play. I suppose the advantage in having 26+ hived off to a different bid is that when you bid the 24/25 variety it is easy for partner decide the level.

 

As regards 2 point ranges, I play 1NT as 15/16 and like it like that. This means you can play Stayman and have a 2NT rebid from partner as categorically to play and not invitational.

 

We play transfer walsh with a transfer break as 17/18, and a special sequence for 19, so the only 3 point range we have to contend with is a 12-14.

[Phil]

I am sure 24+ has something going for it, if you agree it is a GF regardless of partner's hand. Over 2NT there is no problem in finding the normally right contract.

 

 

I pick up a 26 point hand and I start 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 2N.

 

Partner staymans (or puppet staymans, w/e). I show a major and he raises to game. Or is there some sort of checkback where pard can say, I'm raising you to game, but if you have extra values (north of 25), move on?

 

What happens if partner transfers and rebids 3N?

[cherdano]

I pick up a 26 point hand and I start 2♣ - 2♦ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 2N.

 

Partner staymans (or puppet staymans, w/e). I show a major and he raises to game. Or is there some sort of checkback where pard can say, I'm raising you to game, but if you have extra values (north of 25), move on?

 

What happens if partner transfers and rebids 3N?

Uh. Stayman, major reply, other major = slam interest. Also, if 2♦ or 2♠ promises a control or 4+hcp then opener can make a slam invitation with 27-28 and force to slam with a good 29. So it's really just like any other 3-point range, this time 24-26.

[stansllee]

I was just making sure I wouldn't be the only one to miss this 96% grand. ;)

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sat8haqj2dj73ct86&n=sj75hk7dakq42cakq&d=n&v=n&b=5&a=2cp2dp2np3cp3dp6nppp]266|200[/hv]

Using the natural methods start from:

2♣ - 2NT = natural, 10+ points, balanced

this will lead us to the good grand slam.