Anything is Better Than Jac2NT

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Only 2 Responders showed restraint and passed 4S:

1S - Jac2NT!

4S ( minimum, no shortness) - pass

 

The rest went to 6S ( or 6NT ) :

1S - 2NT!

4S - 4NT!

5D ( 1 key ) - 6S/6NT

 

Down 1

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saj63ha94daq7cqj8&n=skqt92hkj5dkj3c32]133|200[/hv]

North Dealer... MP scoring...

How would you bid it ?

[mtvesuvius]

My system w/Owen:

1N - 2N [11-14; Puppet Stayman]

3♠ - 4♠ [5♠; OK]

 

My system w/Grossack:

1♠ - 2♣ [Natural and Limited; GF Relay]

2♦ - 2♥ [bAL/♣/5440; Relay]

2♠ - 2N [bAL/5440; Relay]

3NT - 4♦ [5332 Minimum; Asking how he likes hand for ♠ slam]

4♠ - P [bad hand for slam; OK]

 

Standard 2/1 with a few modifications:

1♠ - 2N [Normal; INV+ Raise]

3♣ - 3♦ [All Minimums; Asking More]

3♥ - 4♠ [No Shortness; OK]

[awm]

Elianna and I would have the following simple auction:

 

1♠ - 2NT(1)

3♠(2) - 4♦(3)

4♠(4) - Pass(5)

 

(1) Either 3-card limit raise or 4+ card GF raise

(2) Minimum, no singleton or void, would not accept 3-card LR

(3) Serious slam interest, diamond control, no club control

(4) We have no club control!

(5) Oh well

[Fluffy]

playing limit or more 2NT is more useful than classic jacoby 2NT where (I think) 4M is weak :)

 

1♠-2NT

3♣!-3♦! (minimum or singleton clubs/explain)

3♠-4♦ (minimum/cuebid)

4♠

[matmat]

and without mods, we could try to cuebid instead of keycard (i am sure someone will explain to me why this is wrong)

 

1♠-2NT

4♠-5♦

5♠-p

[Finch]

Responder just needs to use some restraint. Without getting into fancy methods, if opener only jumps to 4S over 2NT with a 5332 minimum with no more than 1 keycard then responder has an obvious pass.

[kgr]

Elianna and I would have the following simple auction:

 

1♠ - 2NT(1)

3♠(2) - 4♦(3)

4♠(4) - Pass(5)

 

(1) Either 3-card limit raise or 4+ card GF raise

(2) Minimum, no singleton or void, would not accept 3-card LR

...

I play 2NT is 4+ card limit+ raise. And on that it would probably start:

1♠-2NT

4♠=just enough to accept a limit raise, no shortage.

After which we would probably end up in 6♠

=> Do you agree with 4♠ if 2NT is 4+ card limit+ raise.?

[mcphee]

What are you supposed to say about pairs reaching a slam at match points when they bid key card off two possible C losers which is in a suit they have never bid? As an opponent you say thanks very much. As a partner you might say, did I say I had a bad hand but you did not hear me? Playing pairs I would not even accept a limit raise with this hand. Perhaps limit means 11-12 with 4 cards, but opposite a more normal 9-11 I wish the 4S bidders the best of luck. This will be especially true when part of our dear partners hand is AJxx in trumps, possibly 1/2 of his limit bid. If the other half is KJxx in C you could even go down in 2S!!

[TWO4BRIDGE]

What are you supposed to say about pairs reaching a slam at match points when they bid key card off two possible C losers which is in a suit they have never bid? As an opponent you say thanks very much. As a partner you might say, did I say I had a bad hand but you did not hear me? Playing pairs I would not even accept a limit raise with this hand. Perhaps limit means 11-12 with 4 cards, but opposite a more normal 9-11 I wish the 4S bidders the best of luck. This will be especially true when part of our dear partners hand is AJxx in trumps, possibly 1/2 of his limit bid. If the other half is KJxx in C you could even go down in 2S!!

The folks who play a system where 2NT! is limit raise + have the ability to STOP in 3S when both partners have "bad" hands.

 

The "plain vanilla" Jac2NT is GF w/ 4+ support.

 

These other systems ( all shown so far ) have the ability to find out about NO Ctrl in a side-suit BELOW 4S ( in a GF auction ) . This hand is a "poster child" for any of those systems.

 

The one I know about is Swedish-2NT ( I think it is also called Stenberg-2NT after it's inventor ).

1M - 2NT! = 4+ support w/limit raise+

3C! = any minimum..... etc, etc

Thus, allowing Opener to show no shortness AND subsequent cuebidding to show NO Cl Ctrl BELOW 4S.

[fromageGB]

Thus, allowing Opener to show no shortness AND subsequent cuebidding to show NO Cl Ctrl BELOW 4S.

This is a very important thing to do. In one partnership playing Jacoby 2NT, ie game force with 4 card support, we have a structure that allows BOTH hands to show shortages, which is also important. On this hand it goes

 

1♠ . .2NT - GF, 4 card support

3♣ . . . . . - I don't have a shortage, do you?

... . . 4♦ - no shortage, serious cue bid.

 

Note - 3♠ rather than 4♦ would be a responder's shortage in clubs. Going higher that this means no shortage. 3NT is "non-serious" and bypassing it means responder has typically 3+ points (or equivalent) more than needed for his GF. So 4♦ is a serious cue bid. We bid 1st or second round control, so 4♦ effectively shows xx in ♣. Opener continues ...

 

4♠ There are 2 obvious losers in clubs.

 

 

(ps. How do I do a non-breaking space or a tab ?)

[ewleongusa]

Only 2 Responders showed restraint and passed 4S:

1S - Jac2NT!

4S ( minimum, no shortness) - pass

 

The rest went to 6S ( or 6NT ) :

1S - 2NT!

4S - 4NT!

5D ( 1 key ) - 6S/6NT

 

Down 1

 

[hv=pc=n&s=saj63ha94daq7cqj8&n=skqt92hkj5dkj3c32]133|200[/hv]

North Dealer... MP scoring...

How would you bid it ?

 

 

I would not use Jacoby 2NT here. With lots of controls and good trumps and 18 hcp you need a very good excuse not to get to 6S.

In particular, you have to find out if you are missing a key card and the queen of trumps or the opponents can cash two top club tricks.

Further, if partner has a more distributional hand your side should be investigating a grand. Consequently, I would keep the bidding as low as possible and bid 2C. I could see the auction going:

 

1S 2C

2NT 3S

4S ?

 

Now in 2/1, my 3S bid is unlimited and I am asking partner to cuebid something. In particular, one would think with the club ace or club king

he would bid it over 3S so now you have a good case for passing 4S.

 

Eric Leong

[TWO4BRIDGE]

(ps. How do I do a non-breaking space or a tab ?)

Tabs : click on icon on upper right in the reply options -- it has the little bars... the 1st icon of the four.

 

Space: In the old forum there was an icon you could click on: space which appeared as enclosed in brackets [ ] for each space you desired.... and it still works here, but you have to type it out ( then highlight/copy( Ctrl-C ) and then paste ( Ctrl-V ) for each "space" you want)..... rather tedious.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I would keep the bidding as low as possible and bid 2C. I could see the auction going:

 

1S 2C

2NT 3S

4S ?

 

Now in 2/1, my 3S bid is unlimited and I am asking partner to cuebid something. In particular, one would think with the club ace or club king

he would bid it over 3S so now you have a good case for passing 4S.

 

Eric Leong

I was thinking along those same lines and queried an expert I know.

He emphatically said "NO" because how else could Responder find out about Cl-shortness if Opener had such a hand. He added that Responder has a perfect balanced GF raise... it's just that the " 4S bid ( in plain Jacoby ) is a slam killer" .

[ewleongusa]

I was thinking along those same lines and queried an expert I know.

He emphatically said "NO" because how else could Responder find out about Cl-shortness if Opener had such a hand. He added that Responder has a perfect balanced GF raise... it's just that the " 4S bid ( in plain Jacoby ) is a slam killer" .

 

But even if partner has a stiff club you still need to find out more.

For example, give partner: S KQ109x H Kxxx D KJx C x.

You would probably end up in a hopeless 6S after a Jacoby 2NT bid.

 

Still if you start with 2C the partnership has a shot to stay out of a bad 6S. But in this auction, the bidding would go:

 

1S 2C

2H 2S

3D 3H

4C 4D

4S ?

 

Certainly, you know partner has club shortness. But with H KQxx partner might have bid 4H so now one might suspect a heart loser and a club loser.

 

Eric Leong

[Trinidad]

One partnership (playing rebids to 2NT in Bergen's style):

1♠ - 2NT   5+♠, 11-16 | GF 4+ raise

4♦ - 4♠     Balanced minimum, ♦ cue (1st/2nd), denies ♣ cue | End of story

 

Other partnership:

1♠ - 2NT   5+♠, 11-20 | almost GF 4+ raise

3♦ - 3♥     MIN or MAX, no shortness, only not GF rebid | Start cuebidding, even if you are MIN!

4♦ - 4♠     MIN, ♦ cue (1st/2nd), denies ♣ cue | End of story

 

The key is, of course, to have a structure that makes it possible to evaluate slam possibilities at a little lower level so that it is possible to cue 1st and 2nd round controls below 4♠.

 

Rik

[Bbradley62]

Playing Mama-Papa (maybe not Advanced/Expert) bridge, with plain old Jacoby 2NT, responder should pass 4S because opener's 11-13HCP without shortness is simply not likely to be enough for slam.

 

PS: It might have been more interesting to see responses if you had posted responder's hand without showing opener's or telling the result.

[mike777]

fwiw playing the bergen version it would go:

 

1s=2nt!

4d!=4s

 

 

4d denies shortness, denies a good second suit, shows around 13 hcp and shows a d control, denies a club control.

[awm]

I play 2NT is 4+ card limit+ raise. And on that it would probably start:

1♠-2NT

4♠=just enough to accept a limit raise, no shortage.

After which we would probably end up in 6♠

=> Do you agree with 4♠ if 2NT is 4+ card limit+ raise.?

 

Jumping to 4♠ is basically not a part of our methods. Part of the reason we play 2NT=3-card limit raise is to reduce the range of hands which are minimum in terms of slam interest but want to take a shot at game opposite the limit raise hand (the other part of the reason involves punishing opponents who crash our auction). If opener had no shortage and enough for game (but not a lot more) we would bid 1♠-2NT-3NT (balanced game accept but not a lot more) and allow responder to cuebid.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

If opener had no shortage and enough for game (but not a lot more) we would bid 1♠-2NT-3NT (balanced game accept but not a lot more) and allow responder to cuebid.

 

How would your system change if ♥were trump?

Because:

1♥- 2NT!

3NT - ?? no room for a ♠ cuebid below 4♥....

 

... or do you use

1♥ - 2S! as an artificial limit raise+ ?

[TWO4BRIDGE]

fwiw playing the bergen version it would go:

 

1s=2nt!

4d!=4s

 

 

4d denies shortness, denies a good second suit, shows around 13 hcp and shows a d control, denies a club control.

 

Same question for you if ♥ are trump?

1H - 2NT!

?? What would show a Sp Ctrl ( or lack thereof ) and no shortness but enough for game ?

 

or does it start:

1H - 2S! ??

[Siegmund]

Lots of ideas to improve Jac2N in the thread, but...

 

~cough~cough~ you can hardly blame Jac2N for responder's inability to evaluate his hand. Quacky 4333s do not argue for bidding one more. Even if you believe "18HCP" rather than "7 losers" (or you upgrade the loser count for an extra ace and two jacks in combination) there are a LOT of minimum openers where slam is completely hopeless.

 

Find out who those two responders who passed 1S-2NT-4S were, and ask 'em to be your partner next time.

[awm]

How would your system change if ♥were trump?

Because:

1♥- 2NT!

3NT - ?? no room for a ♠ cuebid below 4♥....

 

... or do you use

1♥ - 2S! as an artificial limit raise+ ?

 

Nope, no room for a spade cuebid in that sequence below 4♥.

 

Again, our methods are optimized a lot more for simplicity than for being theoretically best. But we still eliminated the ridiculous 4M jump. :P

[kenrexford]

Jacoby 2NT sucks. It really sucks with hands like this.

 

My methods:

 

1♠-1♣(real or fit)

2♦(waiting)-2♠(fit)

 

then cue

 

The club hole appears, sign off.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Lots of ideas to improve Jac2N in the thread, but...

 

~cough~cough~ you can hardly blame Jac2N for responder's inability to evaluate his hand. Quacky 4333's do not argue for bidding one more. Even if you believe "18HCP" rather than "7 losers" .....

THX, Siggy...

 

Both partners had 7 loser hands eventho one has 13 hcp and the other 18.... which doesn't add up to slam...( 24 - 7 - 7 = 10 tricks .. maybe 11 tricks with a little upgrade, as you said ). I think the 18 hcp "blinded" the "thinking" about Loser Trick Count .

 

Even if Opener had a Cl Ctrl ( turn one of his RED Kings into a ♣K ), it's a bad slam :

 

K Q 10 9 x ...... A J x x

J x x .............. A 9 x

K J x ............. A Q x

K x ............... Q J x

[JLOGIC]

1S 2N

3C 3D

3H 3N

p

 

3C=min

3D=ask

3H=balanced