gwnn Posted December 18, 2010 Report Share Posted December 18, 2010 I'd like to add that playing a weak NT (12-14) preempts this problem beautifully.Any hand that would be tempted to pass the (semi-)forcing NT is already opened 1NT. Except 4♠-5♥ hands Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JLOGIC Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 I'd like to add that playing a weak NT (12-14) preempts this problem beautifully.Any hand that would be tempted to pass the (semi-)forcing NT is already opened 1NT. I feel the exact opposite, when I'm playing weak NT I hate it because I have to bid 3 card minors all the time over 1N and effectively play forcing NT now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the hog Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 Wikipedia: "...except that the opener is allowed to pass with a 5-3-3-2 minimum..." Karen McCallum: "[O]pener can pass with a balanced 12 or 13 pts." Larry Cohen: "Note: If you prefer, treat 1NT as 'semi-forcing.' This still means 6-12, but opener is allowed to pass if he has a flat minimum (5-3-3-2)." Many others... Your post makes no sense. Firstly Wikipedia is not a reliable source. Any idiot can post there.Secondly, the McCallum and the Cohen links talk about FNT, not the oxymoronic SFNT. Therefore these links are totally irrelevant to your question. True Cohen mentions SFNT almost as a throwaway comment. I would not pay any attention to the fact that he only mentioned a 5332 shape. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gnasher Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 I'd appreciate it if someone could explain the advantages of this style to me.The main reason I do this is that it seems to work - I find that 2C, 2D or 2H is usually a better contract than 1NT with this type of hand. When neither opponent has bid, the suits tend to break, so a suit contract plays OK even when it's only a 7-card fit. In 1NT it is harder to exploit that, because the communications are awkward. To see whether I was right about this, I generated 30 deals, with North having any hand in the 5-10 range with 3=2 or shorter in the majors, then removed any deals where I thought the bidding would have started differently*. That left 13 deals. These, together with my (fairly superficial) analysis are below. In summary, there were 7 deals where 2♣ seemed to gain, 2 deals where pass seemed to gain, and 4 where nothing makes. (For these four, I didn't consider which contract was likely to go down more.) I assumed responder would never give false preference with 2=4 and two low hearts. Some of the deals were hands where you might not respond 1NT, depending on your system. Looking at the hands, it seems that 2♣ tends to work because:- We may find a 5-3 club fit- Even a 4-3 club fit often plays better because we can ruff diamonds- When partner has only three clubs, he sometimes has six diamonds, which make a playable trump suit but will be hard to set up in 1NT. I realise that I may not have analysed enough hands to draw a reliable conclusion. Still, I'm happy. *If anyone wants to see the hands that I removed, I still have them. -------------------------- S: AT H: 6 D: QT543 C: A9653 S: Q5 S: K7432 H: AQT94 H: 72 D: K72 D: J986 C: T82 C: K7 S: J986 H: KJ853 D: A C: QJ4 2C probably gets us too high; 1NT makes -------------------------- S: Q43 H: 94 D: QT542 C: KT2 S: 752 S: AKT H: QT7 H: A62 D: KJ876 D: 93 C: A5 C: 98763 S: J986 H: KJ853 D: A C: QJ4 Nothing makes -------------------------- S: K42 H: 6 D: KQJ9854 C: 82 S: T53 S: AQ7 H: AQ974 H: T2 D: 3 D: T762 C: K953 C: AT76 S: J986 H: KJ853 D: A C: QJ4 2D makes; 1NT goes down -------------------------- S: Q2 H: 76 D: KJT874 C: 863 S: KT73 S: A54 H: AT2 H: Q94 D: Q95 D: 632 C: AT9 C: K752 S: J986 H: KJ853 D: A C: QJ4 Nothing makes -------------------------- S: 743 H: 76 D: KJ9853 C: A3 S: AT S: KQ52 H: AQ H: T942 D: QT7642 D: --- C: 852 C: KT976 S: J986 H: KJ853 D: A C: QJ4 Nothing makes -------------------------- S: 4 H: 76 D: Q7542 C: KT753 S: AK73 S: QT52 H: T92 H: AQ4 D: JT3 D: K986 C: A82 C: 96 S: J986 H: KJ853 D: A C: QJ4 2C makes (probably get pushed to 3C, but that makes too); 1NT goes down -------------------------- S: 32 H: A9 D: 8764 C: K9632 S: AKT4 S: Q75 H: QT76 H: 42 D: KJ D: QT9532 C: T85 C: A7 S: J986 H: KJ853 D: A C: QJ4 2C makes (probably get pushed to 3C, but that makes too); 1NT goes down -------------------------- S: 742 H: --- D: KQJ862 C: 8652 S: KQ3 S: AT5 H: Q976 H: AT42 D: T743 D: 95 C: T7 C: AK93 S: J986 H: KJ853 D: A C: QJ4 2D makes; 1NT goes down -------------------------- S: T H: Q9 D: KJT97652 C: T9 S: KQ43 S: A752 H: A74 H: T62 D: Q43 D: 8 C: K65 C: A8732 S: J986 H: KJ853 D: A C: QJ4 2D makes; 1NT goes down -------------------------- S: T2 H: 7 D: KJT92 C: KT983 S: A3 S: KQ754 H: Q9642 H: AT D: 865 D: Q743 C: A76 C: 52 S: J986 H: KJ853 D: A C: QJ4 2C makes (probably get pushed to 3C, but that makes too); 1NT goes down -------------------------- S: K73 H: 94 D: 9742 C: KT98 S: A42 S: QT5 H: Q7 H: AT62 D: K8653 D: QJT C: A52 C: 763 S: J986 H: KJ853 D: A C: QJ4 Nothing makes -------------------------- S: AK7 H: 62 D: QJ3 C: T9752 S: QT32 S: 54 H: AT9 H: Q74 D: KT96 D: 87542 C: K3 C: A86 S: J986 H: KJ853 D: A C: QJ4 2C makes (probably get pushed to 3C, but that makes too); 1NT makes too. -------------------------- S: KT H: 74 D: Q7632 C: AT97 S: AQ74 S: 532 H: QT H: A962 D: T94 D: KJ85 C: K532 C: 86 S: J986 H: KJ853 D: A C: QJ4 2C probably goes down; 1NT probably makes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike777 Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 1nt sf for me means you pass about 20% and bid other 80% or other responder rebids something.. so you play 1nt 20% assuming opp pass...less wtp? ------------------ pard opens on one level with crap often.... opp silent........less so etc..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill1157 Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 Except 4♠-5♥ hands 4=5=2=2 is ok to open 1NT Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ewleongusa Posted December 19, 2010 Report Share Posted December 19, 2010 Let's say I start off playing standard 2/1, whatever that is. Then someone shows me some neat gadget for handling a 3-card limit raise of 1M, say by stuffing it into 2♣. Then someone tells me I can switch to a "semi-forcing" 1NT if I play jump shifts as natural and invitational. I ask what this semi-forcing 1NT is and it is explained to me that it is like a forcing 1NT except that I can pass if I have a balanced minimum. I take this to mean 5332 shape with less than an opening 1NT. The story could end here. But let's talk about it some more. Say I hold[hv=pc=n&s=sj986hkj853dacqj4]133|100[/hv]and decide to open 1♥. Partner bids 1NT, "semiforcing". I don't have a balanced hand, so I'm supposed to bid something. 2♠ is obviously out of the question. Some people, it's rumoured, would rebid 2♣. They probably aren't playing Gazzilli. I even suspect they're not playing matchpoints. That leaves 2♥. Will I be able to say "Thank you, partner," if he tables a 3154 hand? So I pass. An extreme example, you say. It wasn't systemic, it was a "tactical bid", I was applying "judgement". I guess they're saying I shouldn't do it again when I hold a small diamond and the Ace of spades? Playing the aforementioned Gazzilli convention, what if I hold[hv=pc=n&s=sjthkq742d93caqt5]133|100[/hv]Sure, my clubs are decent. I could call this "clubs or strong". But really... why should I? 1NT is a great contract. Everyone loves 1NT. Especially at matchpoints! My question is, which hands does the so-called "semiforcing 1NT" still contain which are not in a standard non-forcing 1NT. Obviously there are some invitational hands in there which don't have a good enough suit for a jump shift. But if they plan to invite me, they will do so in vain, for I will not be accepting with the aforementioned hands. When your partner responds 1NT he is showing six to a bad 12 in hcp. You decide if you should bid on or not. If you decide to bid on it may be with a three card minor. Typically, if you are 5-3-3-2 minimum and you would reject any game try then you might as well pass now. Partner might have a three card limit raise but if you were going to pass being on the one level instead of the three level has something going for it. Eric Leong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MickyB Posted December 20, 2010 Report Share Posted December 20, 2010 Agree with JLOGIC, except that playing weak NT and 2/1 I think you have to rebid 2C on 5=3=3=2 and 3=5=3=2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted December 21, 2010 Report Share Posted December 21, 2010 I think that passing 1NT with J10 KQxxx 9x AQ10x is really bad mgoetze. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mgoetze Posted December 21, 2010 Author Report Share Posted December 21, 2010 I think that passing 1NT with J10 KQxxx 9x AQ10x is really bad mgoetze. Great! Can you also give examples of hands where you would consider it "bad (but not really bad)", "borderline", "acceptable", "reasonable", "good" and "really good"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
han Posted December 21, 2010 Report Share Posted December 21, 2010 If you did it it would merely be bad, not really bad. And if you had bad suits and good doubletons it would be reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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