Florida school board shooting

[JLOGIC]

**Disclaimer, intense video where real people get shot. If you don't want to see this, do not click the link**

 

Saw this on 2+2, freaking intense:

 

 

lol @ the woman, and the main guy antagonizing the shooter. Good job to the other guy. Also, be sure the click the ending when you're done.

[Phil]

Love the DB trying to reason with the guy with the gun. If there was any doubt about who was going to get shot (or shot and missed as the case was) that was settled quickly. And the Ruth Buzzi clone slapping the guy with her handbag - too funny.

 

About 10 years ago, there was a fatal shooting at a Riverside, CA city council meeting. As a result, most council chambers were fitted with some kind of guard rail that prevents people from the audience from getting too close to councilmembers.

[JLOGIC]

And the Ruth Buzzi clone slapping the guy with her handbag - too funny.

 

Lol I mean what was she thinking? We are laughing but she endangered the life of everyone in there, what an idiot.

[mgoetze]

The comments on the second video about how things would be better if everyone ran around if a gun are incredibly stupid and typically american. Do they seriously believe it would have made this situation any better if one of the school board dudes pulled a gun out of his jacket and started a shooting contest?

 

OTOH, things like this seem to take place much less frequently in countries with strict gun control laws.

 

And LOL at the German politicians who, after any school massacre, demand that violent video games be banned. The connections to video games have been tenuous to non-existent in all of these cases. On the other hand, there has been a connection to gun hobbyist clubs every time (that's where the weapons came from). You'd think it would be obvious to ban the gun hobbyist clubs instead.

[Bbradley62]

About 10 years ago, there was a fatal shooting at a Riverside, CA city council meeting. As a result, most council chambers were fitted with some kind of guard rail that prevents people from the audience from getting too close to councilmembers.

So, if you intend to shoot the Riverside council members, you should go to the shooting range first, to practice shooting from a few yards away?

[Phil]

So, if you intend to shoot the Riverside council members, you should go to the shooting range first, to practice shooting from a few yards away?

 

?

 

What a pathetic attempt at humor.

[JLOGIC]

The comments on the second video about how things would be better if everyone ran around if a gun are incredibly stupid and typically american. Do they seriously believe it would have made this situation any better if one of the school board dudes pulled a gun out of his jacket and started a shooting contest?

 

OTOH, things like this seem to take place much less frequently in countries with strict gun control laws.

 

And LOL at the German politicians who, after any school massacre, demand that violent video games be banned. The connections to video games have been tenuous to non-existent in all of these cases. On the other hand, there has been a connection to gun hobbyist clubs every time (that's where the weapons came from). You'd think it would be obvious to ban the gun hobbyist clubs instead.

 

lol at using youtube comments for your view of "typically american."

[mgoetze]

lol at using youtube comments for your view of "typically american."

 

I've seen this line of "reasoning" in many other places than just YouTube comments. :P

[blackshoe]

So? That doesn't mean it's "typically American".

[kenberg]

I like to think that I am a fairly typical American. And even worse, I have no plans to correct that deficiency.

 

For the record, I have never killed anyone. Actually, I think that is fairly typical for Americans.

[Hanoi5]

Was he Anon? Legion?

[mikeh]

I agree....or maybe it's my age (advanced) that makes me think that youtube comments may not be reflective of the typical american.

 

But check out msnbc's story and the 1400+ comments...msnbc is viewed in the US as left of centre (it would probably be seen as conservative in most western democracies). There are a handful of posters arguing for greater gun control, but they attract lots of impassioned 'rebuttal'. Some argue, with apparent sincerity, that had the school board members been armed, the incident would never have occurred! I guess they overlooked the part where the gunman announced, early on, that he was going to die....I guess they are also unfamiliar with the concept of suicide by cop....which is a very real phenonomen...I know because I cross-examined one of the leading US police use of force experts in a trial a year ago.

 

Others argue that 'an armed society is a polite society'. I guess they think americans are politer, as a society, than the Japanese?

 

Or that the UK, or Germany or France have far higher gun homicide rates than the US?

 

And why do so many advocates of gun ownership argue that because they wouldn't ever act irrationally, no-one else would either? Many ordinary people act irrationally....in fact, we all act irrationally at times. Some of us get drunk or stoned. Some of us get depressed. Some of us suffer road rage. Some of us feel we've been insulted. Only an idiot would argue that emotionally disturbed or intoxicated individuals should be permitted to carry a loaded handgun, but the gun supporters always argue 'it's not the tool, it's the fool' or 'guns don't kill people, people kill people'.

 

No: people with guns kill people. And they do so far more often than people without guns do.

 

Or don't any of you gun-proponents actually look at the statistics of gun and murder rates in western democracies correlated against gun ownership? With the exception of Switzerland, which is a special case for cultural, and historical reasons, the tighter the gun control, the lower the murder rate....not perhaps an exact match but certainly a significant correlation.

[blackshoe]

The Japanese are polite, as a society, because historically, not being polite to the wrong person would result in your head rolling off your neck.

 

New York City has the toughest gun control laws in the nation — and a murder rate that may not be the highest, but it's up there.

 

Have you read Point Blank Mike?

[cherdano]

lol at using youtube comments for your view of "typically american."

 

I do think it is "typical American" that many Americans react to such shootings by thinking "I wish someone would have had a gun to stop him" rather than "I wish this guy wouldn't have had a gun". This doesn't mean that all Americans think so, it does not even mean that a majority of Americans think so; it just means that among Americans, significantly more react this way than in other countries.

 

Such statements are always generalizations, but that doesn't mean there isn't some truth to them.

[hotShot]

It may be true that the victims could have defended themselves if they had guns, but I find the argument much more convincing that if the villain has no gun, he won't shoot anyone.

[mgoetze]

I do think it is "typical American" that many Americans react to such shootings by thinking "I wish someone would have had a gun to stop him" rather than "I wish this guy wouldn't have had a gun". This doesn't mean that all Americans think so, it does not even mean that a majority of Americans think so; it just means that among Americans, significantly more react this way than in other countries.

 

Thanks Arend, if I could afford it I would hire you as my official interpreter. ;)

[blackshoe]

It may be true that the victims could have defended themselves if they had guns, but I find the argument much more convincing that if the villain has no gun, he won't shoot anyone.

 

Guns exist. So long as they exist, some people will have them (legally or not). So long as some people have them, it is folly to deny others that right.

[gwnn]

BTW, what should they have told him? If they don't tell him anything, he will probably shoot them, if they try to calm him down they will come across as patronising and he will shoot them, if they confront him he will probably get mad and shoot them, I think talking to him relatively honestly while keeping their calm was more or less the best choice. Any ideas?

[y66]

BTW, what should they have told him? If they don't tell him anything, he will probably shoot them, if they try to calm him down they will come across as patronising and he will shoot them, if they confront him he will probably get mad and shoot them, I think talking to him relatively honestly while keeping their calm was more or less the best choice. Any ideas?

 

I thought those board members handled the situation pretty well. If I had my wits about me, I think I would just try to keep the guy talking about his problems and his family as long as possible and what he thinks the possible solutions are. If that doesn't work, maybe ask him to explain what that diagram was all about, where did he learn to draw like that, who were his influences, etc.

 

That "typical American" comment and subsequent comments are surprising to me. It is definitely typical of some Americans to respond that way. But hardly "typically American".

[Fluffy]

Guns exist. So long as they exist, some people will have them (legally or not). So long as some people have them, it is folly to deny others that right.

yeah and everyone has the rights to have nuclear missiles in his home for the same reasoning lol.

[mikeh]

Guns exist. So long as they exist, some people will have them (legally or not). So long as some people have them, it is folly to deny others that right.

I think this answer epitomizes the cultural differences between the US and most of the rest of the democratic world. In many societies, the (non-universal) consensus would be that as long as some people will have handguns or assault weapons, society should focus on trying to eradicate or limit such ownership (apart from say police officers, security guards etc)in order to save lives. In the US, it seems to me that the idea that people owe society any duty takes a distant back seat to 'rights'. And it is in the interests of those who control the media and the governments to foster that attitude, because it preserves the notion that its ok for the wealthy to become incredibly rich while giving back almost nothing to society. Once you start believing that everyone in a society has a duty to society that is as anywhere near as important as their individual 'rights', matters like universal health care, a proper educational system for everyone, a regressive tax system and gun control become natural rather than alien concepts.

 

BTW, the notion that the proper response to someone pulling a gun is to pull one's own is rejected by the majority of police officers...their advice is to either run away if possible or to do as told.

 

Another factor ignored by the gun lobby is that in real life, as opposed to movies and television, the vast majority of even trained gun owners become terrible shots when faced with confrontation. I'm sure most here have heard stories of police shootings where dozens of rounds were fired at close range and few shots hit. I've interviewed and examined in court 'use of force' experts and they all agree on this reality. So the typical result of 'everyone' pulling their guns will be a lot of stray rounds and a lot of bystander casualties.

 

But, hey why let reality interfere with the myth of the wild west: macho fantasy is so much more rewarding than reality.

[kenberg]

BTW, the notion that the proper response to someone pulling a gun is to pull one's own is rejected by the majority of police officers...their advice is to either run away if possible or to do as told.[/Quote]

 

No doubt this is sensible advice. But then I have a long list of really stupid things that I have done.

 

Some time ago a friend was telling about his daughter. She was maybe twenty or so, working in a jewelry store and a guy came in with a gun. He told me that she did everything wrong. Instead of handing over the cash and jewels she kicked him in the balls and took away his gun. He was quite proud of his daughter's error. A similar thing happened when I was young and had a friend who worked in a gas station. My daughter stopped her car once and came to the aid of someone being assaulted. When I was still in elementary school we rented out the top floor of our house to a divorced woman with kids. Her drunken ex came over to settle things with his former wife. My mother pointed my father's shotgun at the door and explained that he would not be doing that.

 

Yes, we should all be cautions. As a teenager I once found myself, through actions that are too stupid to explain, under a large wooden structure floating on a lake with no way to get air. After a couple of bounces against wood I picked the direction I thought was right and swam until I was out of breath and then came up, either to wood or to air. That was far stupider and for far less purpose than any of the above.

 

 

I'm not a gun nut. I don't own one. I favor far more control.

 

With regard to this demented soul with the gun, I don't usually watch such things and I don't much draw any conclusions from them. A question came to my mind though. Was this camera being operated by a cameraman and if so, was he phoning for help or trying to keep the camera focused on the gunman so that he would have a really nice YouTube video?

[mikeh]

No doubt this is sensible advice. But than I have a long list of really stupid things that I have done.

 

I suspect most of us do....as a young man, I engaged in some horrifically stupid driving....including, when falling asleep at the wheel returning from a bridge tournament, driving at 2 am through a rural forested area on a 2 lane 'highway', speeding up to 100 mph+ in order to scare myself into staying awake.

 

I survived, as did the protagonists in your anecdotes. But I wouldn't ever use my survival as an argument that conduct of that kind was a reasonable response to the situation.

 

Most people who pull a gun in a holdup use it as a threat....it is only in movies or television that robbers routinely shoot unarmed, unresisting people.

 

Imagine that you are the robber.....you are going to be very nervous....you may be on drugs....in any event, your thought processes are unlikely to be rational. Thinking that all you had to do was to look and sound threatening, all of a sudden you are confronted with your victim pulling a gun.

 

What reaction do you expect? That he will suddenly rationalize that maybe this wasn't a good idea and he had better give up? Or that he should turn his back on the person drawing the gun?

 

Or do you think that there will be a tendency to pull the trigger, now out of fear or judgement further clouded by fear and anxiety?

 

Meanwhile, the effect of adrenalin on the physiology of both gun wielding people is to cause their peripheral vision to shut down, their hands to shake, and a fight or flight reflex to take over. The result is that even police officers trained and qualified as marksmen on the range become, usually, very bad shots. So bullets start flying everywhere.

 

A society that thinks that the appropriate response to a plethora of gun-wielding criminals is to arm everyone and to encourage people to shoot back is a society in which I would truly hate to live. I'd far rather make it a very serious offence to carry a gun unless specifically authorized to do so ...and I'd severely limit the right to do so....and I'd enact very harsh punishments for people importing or selling illegal guns. I'd far rather see illegal gun dealers and owners in jail than I would people who deal in marijuana, for example....altho, admittedly there is currently a significant overlap between those categories due to the truly alice-in-wonderland 'war on drugs'...which is another story altogether....tho isn't it odd that many of those who most loudly proclaim their 'right' to guns want to stop others from smoking marijuana? or from having abortions?

[JoAnneM]

Where I live the city and county council meetings always have security present, like a sheriff's deputy. And I don't know what the time frame for this incident was but where were the police? I know a security person eventually shot at him but where was he while all this was happening? Just seems he had a lot of time.

[Phil]

How would the non-Americans engaging in this debate feel if one of the councilmembers was a retired police officer or retired military that happened to have a weapon? Why do the 'no guns' group assume that everyone that has a gun is going to use it incorrectly or wrongly, and that the situation would become like a scene from Scarface? Why is having an innocent person getting shot (or shot and missed here) such an acceptable outcome? I can guarantee you that if I were on that board and some loony came flailing a gun, aside from saving my own ass, one of the things that I would be wishing is that I had a very large caliber weapon sitting in my lap.

 

Please do not give me the crap about if guns were outlawed, this would not happen. Are other illegal things in Europe available on the black market for people? If a sufficiently motivated nutcase wanted to go on a spree, couldn't he acquire a weapon?

 

What if the doofus that attacked the councilmembers had a knife? A gun doesn't look so bad in that scenario and might have saved a life.

 

If your society doesn't allow guns, that's fine. I don't own a gun, but I'm not going to pass judgment on those that do.