Monaco - favourites for the next European Championships?

[paulg]

If you can read Norwegian, or use Chrome or another browser that can translate it for you, there are some quotes from Helness on the Norwegian BIN site.

[skjaeran]

If you can read Norwegian, or use Chrome or another browser that can translate it for you, there are some quotes from Helness on the Norwegian BIN site.

You can also read it here: http://bridgetopics.com/news/2010/dec/helgeness-and-fantunes-immigrate-monaco

[skjaeran]

i have no problem with people who make real life moves to other countries being allowed to represent their new country. russia with b+z, this monaco switch, etc have nothing to do with real life though. it needs to be stopped.

 

what's a realistic cutoff to judge what's legitimate and what's not? citizenship imo

 

Helgemo and Helness are full time bridge players. They are moving to Monaco. They've already applied for citizenship, which it seems they will get from 2010. This is a requirement for them to be able to represent Monaco in 2012 (Monaco rule). In addition, the first three years they can't stay in Norway for more than a short time (I'm not sure how much, 60 or 75 days per year I think) to avoid paying tax to Norway.

 

As a Norwegian, I think it's a pity they've decided to leave Norway and represent Monaco in the future. But it's their own decision, and a decision I respect. With the amount of money involved, I doubt many (if anyone) would have decided otherwise in their position.

[qwery_hi]

It's interesting that there doesn't seem to be much of this situation in sports. Take international football (soccer for americans). There's plenty of professionalism, and the best players are very highly paid. In many cases, top players (particularly those from South America) have moved to other countries (most often Europe) to play on the elite teams there. This gives them the opportunity to make a lot more money, and also to play against better opposition. There are certainly professional leagues, championships, etc.

 

However, we still have the World Cup every four years. And when the World Cup comes around, all these players who are living and working overseas to make the big bucks play for their native country. You don't see Brazilian stars emigrating en masse to Spain to play for the Spanish team (even though many of them surely play professionally in Spain). You don't see a group of all the top players who didn't quite make the cut for their native country deciding to represent Monaco. And while there are plenty of wealthy individuals who own major football teams and are huge fans of the game, when it comes time to select the national team it's based on who an expert coach (or coaches) think are the best players and not on who's the highest bidder (or which professional teams the players work for most of the time).

 

 

 

Comparing soccer and bridge is hilarious - ManU's revenue was upwards of 400 million dollars last year. When bridge starts generating even 1% of that revenue, then perhaps analogies can be drawn between bridge professionals and soccer professionals, and between soccer clubs and bridge clubs.

[PeterGill]

The background to the four famous players moving to Monaco is something like this:

 

Italy's sponsor for many years has been Maria Teresa Lavazza.

She has also been sole selector of the National team. That worked very well until

this year, when Fantoni - Nunes weren't happy to be dropped from the team in order to,

among other things, blood a new young talented player originally from Argentina - Madala.

Mme Lavazza pointed out that she could not fit eight great players into a team of six.

 

Although the new look Italy team won the 2010 European Championship without Fantunes,

relations between the eight Italian players have not been as good as usual this year.

 

Geir Helgemo was involved in an incident in Norway two years ago. I have read

many pages of 2009 material about this incident on Boye Brogeland's Bridge i Norge website

and on a Finnish website (you press "Translate" button at the top). My conclusion

is that the rumours in the English-speaking world of what Helgemo did are most unfair

to Helgemo. Helgemo was not impressed by the way his appeal was handled - nor am I,

from my reading of what happened - so he was not keen to play for Norway in the future.

 

Zimmermann and Multon won the World Transnational Teams in Sao Paulo late in 2009

with Helgemo - Helness and Balicki - Zmudzinski (who have never played for Russia,

having failed the residency requirement). Earlier in 2009, Helgemo had to sit out

events in San Remo and Washington D.C. as well as local Norwegian events, in the

aftermath of the incident he was involved in.

 

With B-Z back playing for Poland and this strong Monaco team, Italy will in future

have stronger opposition than usual in Europe. I imagine that Fantunes

will not sit out against Italy, and H-H will not sit out against Norway.

[Aberlour10]

“The goal is clear: the Bermuda Bowl", says Tor Helness. Yet he has not a complete overview of how the new life will be. “We will carefully adjust to all the rules, so nothing can go wrong. We must be out of Norway for at least six months for instance. In Monaco, however, there is no requirement that we should stay there permanently”. The first event Zimmermann will play is the Open European Championships in June in Poznan.

 

The entire article with some new details of the story >>here>>

 

http://www.bridgetopics.com/news/2010/dec/helgeness-and-fantunes-immigrate-monaco

[paulg]

It's interesting that there doesn't seem to be much of this situation in sports. Take international football (soccer for americans). There's plenty of professionalism, and the best players are very highly paid. In many cases, top players (particularly those from South America) have moved to other countries (most often Europe) to play on the elite teams there. This gives them the opportunity to make a lot more money, and also to play against better opposition. There are certainly professional leagues, championships, etc.

 

However, we still have the World Cup every four years. And when the World Cup comes around, all these players who are living and working overseas to make the big bucks play for their native country. You don't see Brazilian stars emigrating en masse to Spain to play for the Spanish team (even though many of them surely play professionally in Spain). You don't see a group of all the top players who didn't quite make the cut for their native country deciding to represent Monaco. And while there are plenty of wealthy individuals who own major football teams and are huge fans of the game, when it comes time to select the national team it's based on who an expert coach (or coaches) think are the best players and not on who's the highest bidder (or which professional teams the players work for most of the time).

FIFA tightened its rules because precisely this WAS happening in the mid-2000s, with five Brazilians going to Togo and three to Qatar. FIFA's current rules are very similar to bridge except that if you have already represented your country, then a switch is next to impossible.

 

So FIFA would not have allowed HelgeNess and Fantunes to play for Monaco, but I would have been available for a much lower sum. Or perhaps JLOGIC (more expensive I'm sure) would have considered Monaco as an alternative to Vegas?

 

Now back to bridge!

[mgoetze]

So anyway, is this clearance Mr. Zimmermann has obtained from Mr. Rona as valuable as the clearance Mr. Angelini obtained from some other Italian official about Helgemo/Helness/Brogeland playing in the Italian club championships?

[skjaeran]

So anyway, is this clearance Mr. Zimmermann has obtained from Mr. Rona as valuable as the clearance Mr. Angelini obtained from some other Italian official about Helgemo/Helness/Brogeland playing in the Italian club championships?

They do coplay with EBL/WBF rules, so there's no problem.

The problem in the Italian Teams Championships was that someone gave Angelini's team clearance for breaking the rules.

[hrothgar]

Comparing soccer and bridge is hilarious - ManU's revenue was upwards of 400 million dollars last year. When bridge starts generating even 1% of that revenue, then perhaps analogies can be drawn between bridge professionals and soccer professionals, and between soccer clubs and bridge clubs.

 

Man walks up to a beautiful woman in a bar and says

 

"Would you sleep with me for a million dollars?"

 

Woman thinks about it for a couple minutes and say "Yes?"

 

Man replies, "Great, how about for $500?"

 

Woman say "What do you think I am?"

 

Man says "I know what you are, now we're just arguing about the price"

[Aberlour10]

Already to get legal residence permit (carte de sejour)

in Monaco is not so cheap and easy, to get the citizienship considering it improbable. Only 10 year residence entitles the applicant to apply for citizenship and very very few of this applies are later positive decided. But Monaco lives in 100% from the own image, and this new team can be another part of it....so the general rules seem not to be valid in this case. Anyway, at the end The Prince decides it all :)

[Gerben42]

It's safe to assume that the permits can be paid from Zimmermann's profits from the latest Cavendish.

 

With B-Z back playing for Poland and this strong Monaco team, Italy will in future

have stronger opposition than usual in Europe. I imagine that Fantunes

will not sit out against Italy, and H-H will not sit out against Norway.

 

What can I say, I didn't sit out against Netherlands either. In fact, I wanted to insist on playing.

 

In other news, I agree 100% with AWM. Although in many sports this is already reality. We had one of our top speed skaters start for Belgium, and in return got some ski jumpers from Austria. Never mind that Belgium doesn't have a World Cup speed skating arena or Netherlands a ski jump arena.

[hrothgar]

 

It is really obvious to me that the top bridge players would not be nearly as good as they are without the rise of professionalism. The top events would not be nearly as well played.

 

Richard, you ask why does this matter to anyone? I don't know, do you watch vugraph? Do you watch sports? Personally, I watch the NFL and sometimes NBA, but I do not watch the WNBA. This is because the WNBA players do not play at a very high level, so it is not very interesting for me to watch. Do you not believe there are any fans of bridge, some who love Fantunes, some who love Meckwell, some who love Zia, etc, and get a great thrill out of watching them play, mostly because of how well they play?

 

 

Hi Justin, I agree with most of what you're saying, however, I'm not sure whether a decline in the skill level of the top level of bridge pros would necessarily be noticable by the Vugraph audience.

 

For what its worth, I have mixed views about "professionalism" in Bridge.

 

In most cases, I think that pros and sponsors are a good thing.

 

My view is best express as:

 

• It benefits some people
  
• No one really gets hurt
  
• On average, its an improvement
  

 

There are some specific cases where I disapprove of sponsors.

Many of these are hypothetical:

 

Assume that bridge (somehow) became an Olympic Game.

I think that the presence of a sponsor on a team would be a disgrace.

 

I can conceive of cases in which

 

1. There was a glaring difference in the skill level of the sponsor and his pros

2. The pros were strong enough to carry the sponsor across the finish line for a major event

 

This would strike me as unseemly.

I can't necessarily say why, but it just feels wrong...

[Trinidad]

i have no problem with people who make real life moves to other countries being allowed to represent their new country. russia with b+z, this monaco switch, etc have nothing to do with real life though. it needs to be stopped.

 

what's a realistic cutoff to judge what's legitimate and what's not? citizenship imo

The complicating issue with bridge is that the top of the bridge world is a mix between professionals and amateurs.

 

The bridge professionals are moving for their bridge professional career (see the Monaco team). If you see this as unwanted, you want to be as strict as possible.

 

On the other hand, there are also strong amateurs that have migrated for reasons that had nothing to do with bridge. The German doctors are an example of that. In that case, you might want to be a lot more leniant.

 

I could even imagine cases where people have fled their country and established themselves in a new country. Do we want to force those people to play for the country they ran from?

 

Rik

[awm]

The thing is, suppose that (for example) the Cayne team and the Diamond team are playing in the finals of the Spingold. Obviously if you are friendly with someone on one of the teams (or, I suppose, dislike someone intensely on one of the teams) you might have a strong rooting interest in this match. But for the vast majority of the bridge playing population, who don't really know these players, it doesn't make all that much difference to us who wins. Sure, we might watch the finals because it should be good bridge (although often fatigue has taken its toll by then).

 

But the Bermuda Bowl is (or should be) different. If the USA is playing Italy (for example) in the finals, almost everyone has a rooting interest! Despite the fact that (again) most bridge players don't actually know the people on the teams personally, they are representing countries (or to some degree, continents). This is part of what makes the Bermuda Bowl a much bigger deal than (say) the transnational teams.

 

If we allow sponsors to basically game the system by picking out a team of international professionals, then establishing what will probably be a fake address in some tiny country for their players, this seems to reduce the excitement of the event. Are we going to be equally excited to see Monaco play Guam in the Bermuda Bowl finals (despite the fact that none of the players are really from either of those countries) in a few years? Is there even a reason to call the teams Monaco and Guam rather than say Zimmerman and Cayne?

 

*** I want to emphasize that I've used the names of real teams to try to make a point. Personally I have nothing against Cayne, Diamond, or Zimmerman... or any of the regulars on their teams. The times I've played against people from these teams have been perfectly pleasant experiences (although I might not have done as well as I'd have liked). In fact given how the conditions of contest seem to be stated, what Zimmerman is doing with the Monaco address is perfectly reasonable... I just don't think the conditions of contest should be worded to permit that sort of thing.

[NickRW]

I don't entirely disagree with that sentiment. I suppose the question is, where exactly do you draw the line. The opposite extreme is to say something like Fred was born a Canadian - he plays for Canada or not at all and Zia was born Pakistani so he plays for Pakistan or not at all.

 

If, on the other hand, you say players are allowed to move around to take advantage of the opportunities that present themselves and maybe stay somewhere else other than where they were born, then you're permitting a shade of grey and you have to decide where to draw the line. As I understand it the team in question will have not just residency, but citizenship of their chosen country by 2012 and will not have played for another country for at least 2 years. That doesn't seem unreasonable if you're going to allow money to talk in this game (and it does whether anyone likes it or not).

 

Nick

[mike777]

If you are going to draw a line, one needs to clearly state what the goal or purpose of the line is.

 

Confusing goals will lead to a confusing drawn line.

[the hog]

"Who knows, maybe the Holy See will even get into the act..."

 

Hmm, a team from the Vatican. Now that would be interesting.

[qwery_hi]

So if I'm willing to work for Company A for $50000, but not for $30000 that makes me what?

 

oh you're talking about sex, not work. Right, so we should moralize and legalize what happens between two

consenting adults, and furthermore shame the woman.

 

How about:

 

Woman walks up to a man in a bar and says

"Would you sleep with me for a million dollars?"

Man thinks about it for a couple minutes and say "Yes?"

Woman replies, "Great, how about for $500?"

Man say "What do you think I am?"

Woman says "I know what you are, now we're just arguing about the price"

 

What do you call that man? Or will your example only work if the genders are reversed?

 

Funny thing is, your analogy is as hilarious as awm's was. And as wrong.

 

Man walks up to a beautiful woman in a bar and says

 

"Would you sleep with me for a million dollars?"

 

Woman thinks about it for a couple minutes and say "Yes?"

 

Man replies, "Great, how about for $500?"

 

Woman say "What do you think I am?"

 

Man says "I know what you are, now we're just arguing about the price"

[qwery_hi]

The thing is, suppose that (for example) the Cayne team and the Diamond team are playing in the finals of the Spingold. Obviously if you are friendly with someone on one of the teams (or, I suppose, dislike someone intensely on one of the teams) you might have a strong rooting interest in this match. But for the vast majority of the bridge playing population, who don't really know these players, it doesn't make all that much difference to us who wins. Sure, we might watch the finals because it should be good bridge (although often fatigue has taken its toll by then).

 

But the Bermuda Bowl is (or should be) different. If the USA is playing Italy (for example) in the finals, almost everyone has a rooting interest! Despite the fact that (again) most bridge players don't actually know the people on the teams personally, they are representing countries (or to some degree, continents). This is part of what makes the Bermuda Bowl a much bigger deal than (say) the transnational teams.

 

If we allow sponsors to basically game the system by picking out a team of international professionals, then establishing what will probably be a fake address in some tiny country for their players, this seems to reduce the excitement of the event. Are we going to be equally excited to see Monaco play Guam in the Bermuda Bowl finals (despite the fact that none of the players are really from either of those countries) in a few years? Is there even a reason to call the teams Monaco and Guam rather than say Zimmerman and Cayne?

 

*** I want to emphasize that I've used the names of real teams to try to make a point. Personally I have nothing against Cayne, Diamond, or Zimmerman... or any of the regulars on their teams. The times I've played against people from these teams have been perfectly pleasant experiences (although I might not have done as well as I'd have liked). In fact given how the conditions of contest seem to be stated, what Zimmerman is doing with the Monaco address is perfectly reasonable... I just don't think the conditions of contest should be worded to permit that sort of thing.

 

The desire to represent your country should come from within, and not be enforced from without.

[the hog]

So if I'm willing to work for Company A for $50000, but not for $30000 that makes me what?

 

oh you're talking about sex, not work. Right, so we should moralize and legalize what happens between two

consenting adults, and furthermore shame the woman.

 

How about:

 

Woman walks up to a man in a bar and says

"Would you sleep with me for a million dollars?"

Man thinks about it for a couple minutes and say "Yes?"

Woman replies, "Great, how about for $500?"

Man say "What do you think I am?"

Woman says "I know what you are, now we're just arguing about the price"

 

What do you call that man? Or will your example only work if the genders are reversed?

 

Funny thing is, your analogy is as hilarious as awm's was. And as wrong.

Silly comment. The man would sleep with her for free, of course.

[awm]

The desire to represent your country should come from within, and not be enforced from without.

 

The point is that we have an event that's about countries vying for the world championship. A lot of people do want to play for their country, and a lot of people do like watching their country and rooting them on. If Helgemo and Helness don't want to represent Norway (perhaps because they can make more money doing something else, or because they they're upset with their bridge federation) then more power to them. But should we allow them to "crash the party" by having a wealthy sponsor more or less buy citizenships in some tiny country for his "hired guns"? As soon as there are a few such "transnational" teams in the event, it's not really about countries any more is it? It's like allowing a horse to enter the olympic track events.

[mike777]

Again what is the goal. No one says.

 

If only citizens can play for a country ok...if other ok then why and who and be specific.

 

--------------

 

 

I understand one may be a citizen and never live there, speak the language or even visit there.

[qwery_hi]

They're citizens, period. The point is we should not make up arbitrary rules about how some citizens are more genuine than others.

The Olympics is all about disallowing professional athletes for reasons of "purity". Oh wait, they have become whores and are no longer pure.

 

The point is that we have an event that's about countries vying for the world championship. A lot of people do want to play for their country, and a lot of people do like watching their country and rooting them on. If Helgemo and Helness don't want to represent Norway (perhaps because they can make more money doing something else, or because they they're upset with their bridge federation) then more power to them. But should we allow them to "crash the party" by having a wealthy sponsor more or less buy citizenships in some tiny country for his "hired guns"? As soon as there are a few such "transnational" teams in the event, it's not really about countries any more is it? It's like allowing a horse to enter the olympic track events.

[glen]

Chicago Blackhawks are the latest NHL champs - everybody from around Chicago?

SF Giants latest World Series champs - everybody SF/Oakland?

LA Lakers latest NBA champs - all raised in LA?

New Orleans Saints latest NFL champs - Reggie Bush is from New Orleans?

Chelsea F.C latest English Premier League champs - do they play in Chelsea? How many Chelsea players do they have? How many English players do they have?