an auction

[han]

The 24B-idea is not crazy, but I do think it is much worse than Baze. I also think that if the common structure is good (and I think Baze is good) then I will need a good reason before I try something new. What's the reason?

 

Here is why I think that the 24B puppet is so much worse than a natural 3C bid. Usually opener won't be able to decide on the strain. Perhaps he has decent club support, but also stoppers. Perhaps he has 3 good hearts and a so-so diamond stopper. Perhaps he has a fifth spade that he'd like to show. Perhaps he is actually worried about the spade stopper.

 

After a natural and GF 3C, opener has a lot of room to investigate the best strain, without bypassing 3NT. But after the 24B puppet, he won't know if partner has clubs until the next round, and there will be much less room available.

 

Asking for keycards with 3NT really is not important. In fact, in the original Baze structure one could ask for keycards with 4C, but in the modified structure you have to bid 4D, one step higher. If you think you might want to stop in 4M, RKC is usually not the answer. The balanced slam try and the splinters are more important.

 

After the 2S response, the 3C and 3D are very useful as natural, but 3H is not.

[Fluffy]

As the things have gone, partner has a great hand for diamonds, it is time to cuebid hearts, hear a spade cuebid from partner and bid blackwood next.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

2/1, 15-17 nt, MP, dealer north, vuln = none

 

[hv=pc=n&s=sqj74hakdakt742c6]133|100[/hv]

 

1N:2♣

2♠:3♦

4♣:?

 

I hope Jilly shows us the parent hand to see if the Grand Slam was there.

[awm]

The 24B-idea is not crazy, but I do think it is much worse than Baze. I also think that if the common structure is good (and I think Baze is good) then I will need a good reason before I try something new. What's the reason?

 

Suppose you bid 1NT-2♣-2M and you want to make some sort of slam try in the major. How would you prioritize the following three things?

 

(1) Ability to start a cuebidding sequence at a fairly cheap level, possibly with room for serious/nonserious 3NT.

(2) Ability to bid keycard below 4M.

(3) Ability to conceal the suit of an immediate splinter, such that opener can sign off on some minimums without helping the opponents on lead.

 

Personally I would prioritize them in the order given above. In fact, I'd be willing to do away with (2) and (3) entirely if I can have (1). Note that Baze gives you (2) and (3) at the cost of (1) (you will be quite close to 4M before you can cuebid because the balanced slam try is 4♦, or 4♣ playing "reversed" Baze). I'd rather play a structure where 3OM is a simple slam try agreeing opener's major suit, and my jumps to the four-level are splinters rather than play Baze (I also believe this is closer to "standard" without agreement).

 

As for the #24B suggestion, I think it might be better to use 3♣...3OM/3NT to distinguish between 5♣-4OM responder hands with slam interest opposite a fit and hands with the same shape that are mostly worried about finding the best game, rather than having "baby keycard" (some people love their keycard, I'm personally not a fan).

[mike777]

I would bid 4C over 2S. I don't like the 3D bid either; you have effectively buried the spade fit.

 

 

ditto...KISS

 

assuming pard rebids 4s now 4nt is clearly rkc for s not quantative.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

After thinking about it some more, I've thought of a few more improvements over Baze .

With Baze there is a way to show a VOID ( as well as a splinter ) when ♠ are agreed but you can only show a splinter ( stiff or void ) when ♥ are agreed.

 

1) With my proposal, you can show a VOID with either:

 

Lets take ♥ as trump:

1NT - 2C!

2H - 3S!/4C!/4D! = splinter

 

1NT - 2C!

2H - 3C!( puppet to 3D!)

3D! - ??

3NT! = baby RKC

4C! =

♣

Void

4D! =

♦

Void

4H! =

♠

Void

[ And this is the same structure when ♠ are trump ] .

 

2) There can be a slight "optimization" if you reverse the suit meanings for 3C! and 3D!

1NT - 2C

2M - ??

3C!

= either (a) a fit for M and asking for cuebids or

............. ( b ) no fit, 4oM /

5+

♦

3D!

= no fit, 4oM /

5+

♣

This will allow room for more cuebids for Opener to agree the "minor" when no Major fit.

For example:

1NT - 2C

2M - 3C!

3D! - 3S! = no M fit, 4oM / 5+♦ ( recall 3H! = fit for M and asks for Ctrl cuebids )

??

.. 3NT = no fit for either

.. 4C! = Ctrl cue for ♦ as trump

.........whereas there would be no room for a Ctrl cue if 3C! meant ♣

 

Also:

1NT - 2C

2M - 3D! = no M fit, 4oM / 5+♣

??

... ( Opener has 3M or 3oM Ctrl cuebids agreeing ♣ as trump

[jillybean]

I hope Jilly shows us the parent hand to see if the Grand Slam was there.

 

Sorry, I've been busy & away, and I am only just catching up on these now.

 

Partners hand was AKxx,Jxxx,QJ,Axx

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Sorry, I've been busy & away, and I am only just catching up on these now.

 

Partners hand was AKxx,Jxxx,QJ,Axx

 

Bingo... I'll be in 7NT via my post # 13 ( where 4C! was RKC-Gerber for Sp ) or using my new system via "baby RKC for Sp" ( post # 24 ) followed by a 3rd Rnd Ctrl ask for Diam( in either system ) ... and finding Opener with the ♦ Q J .

 

To be fair, the other systems mentioned by others will be there also when ♠ are agreed and Responder does the "asking" -- RKC followed by 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask in Diam.

[Fluffy]

Sorry, I've been busy & away, and I am only just catching up on these now.

 

Partners hand was AKxx,Jxxx,QJ,Axx

Bingo... I'll be in 7NT via my post # 13 ( where 4C! was RKC-Gerber for Sp ) or using my new system via "baby RKC for Sp" ( post # 24 ) followed by a 3rd Rnd Ctrl ask for Diam( in either system ) ... and finding Opener with the ♦ Q J .

 

To be fair, the other systems mentioned by others will be there also when ♠ are agreed and Responder does the "asking" -- RKC followed by 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask in Diam.

Don, I have been trying for some weeks to find a post where I agree with you or I can post something constructive about your unnusual methods, but if you keep posting without thinking it gets really hard.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

Don, I have been trying for some weeks to find a post where I agree with you or I can post something constructive about your unnusual methods, but if you keep posting without thinking it gets really hard.

 

Granted it is a new structure for "Slammish-after-Stayman" but I don't understand what you mean about me not thinking ( as slow as I am in that department ). The Baze method does NOT allow Ctrl cuebids when the Major is agreed. Mine does yet retains the Splinter options and low-level RKC as Baze.

 

I did sacrifice the "minor suit acceptance" ( for only one of the minors) when NO Major fit.

But awm helped me improve the structure for the "no Major fit, but agree minor" hands.

In fact I have a further improvement on that issue: exchange the 3H! and 3S! meanings:

 

1NT - 2C ( Stayman )

2M - 3C! = slammish, ( either agree M or NO agree M, but have 4oM/5+d ) puppets to 3D!

3D! - ??

3H!( always) = NO M fit, have 4oM/5+d

3S! ( always ) = M fit, and need Ctrl cuebids

 

This way there is plenty of room for ALL outside cuebids for M-fit OR Diam-fit (when NO M-fit).

This way you can determine early on if you have 2 quick losers in an outside suit, BEFORE RKC.

I knoww, I knoww, sometimes I get the feeling I am the only one here who uses ( depends on ) RKC to find out if we are off 2 key cards.

 

What I am guilty of is "highjacking" this post to expound on this new method.

Again, awm has helped me immensely to re-think the idea.

Perhaps it is "all wet", but I'm still "thinking" about it.

 

I've run a number of example hands using Richard Pavlicek's Bidding Practice Dealer.

But, I'll post some example hands using this method on the Non-Natural System Discussion Forum

in the future.

[Fluffy]

What I mean by not thinking is that you are so focused on having reached the best spot that you didn't even notice that the hand posted by jillybean is not a 2♠ bid over 2♣ nor has a diamond fit, let alone to go to the 4 level.

[mtvesuvius]

Also, have you ever used any of these methods successfully at the table? It may look good on paper but it's usually beyond impossible to remember something like that at the table (this coming from someone who plays 4 or 5 relay systems). Personally I'd rather bid naturally or "standard" on hands like this and get to the best spot without "Triple Inverted Half-Sister Reworked Baze with a side of Fries".

[Fluffy]

I wanna eat one of those :) even if its horrible I am ofen happy just with the fries

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I wanna eat one of those :) even if its horrible I am ofen happy just with the fries

 

Eat this. You are right, I didn't even notice Jilly was 4-4 in the Majors, but post #1 had shown 2S over 2C.

So this is how it should have gone using my latest revised method:

 

Opener................Responder

A K x x............... Q J x x

J x x x................ A K

Q J..................... A K 10 7 4 2

A x x.................. 6

 

1NT......................... 2C

2H........................... 3C! slammish ( either Ht-fit OR NO Ht-fit but 4s/5+d ) relays to 3D!

3D! ( which is it ? ).... 3H! ( 4s/5+d ) slammish

4S*.......................... 4NT ( RKC for Sp )

5C! ( 0/3 )................. 6D! ( 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask )

7D! ( dQJ )................ 7NT ( counting 4s, 2h, 1c and 6d: even if dQJ tight )

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

*4S, Opener has to bid 4S to show he was a 4-4 in the Majors because 3S! would be a Ctrl cue--agreeing Diam at this point.

It is not a sign-off. Responder is in charge and has announced a slammish auction.

_______________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

ps. As I said before, "normal" methods would also get you to the same 7NT as long as Responder remains in charge with the "normal" 3D! GF,slammish bid over 2H showing 4s/5+d and NO 4h; and Responder makes a 3rd Rnd Ctrl bid immediately after finding the missing 3 key cards.

 

The difference is I have the cuebidding ( and splinters, etc) options available if Responder really had a Ht fit instead of 4 cards Sp. Baze doesn't have cuebidding options ( just splinters and low level RKCG and the ambiguous 4D! "balanced" slamtry ) . And for those who use 3oM! to agree M ( instead of announceing a splinter somewhere ), they may commence with cuebidding, but splinters are rolled into the cuebids and in that sense remain "hidden" from Opener.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

It may look good on paper but ....

I'll take that as a compliment.

 

And none, sadly, have been tested at the table.

I would have to find a partner as crazy as I am.

 

I forget who said it, but it has been said that " 1NT ( and 2NT ) openers are 'slam killers' " .

I'm trying find ways to dispel that notion.

[Fluffy]

2NT slam killer is common knwledge, but 1NT on the other hand is a very good start for slams, specially the more restricted shapes you have (I restrict 5 card majors, but others restrict 6 card minors or 5-4)

 

Sorry for not reading all your biddings, I have my own relay methods, for example on this hand I would start with 1NT-2♣-2♥-2♠, but if partner had no major I'd start with 1NT-2♣-2♦-2♥-2♠(forced)-3♦ showing diamonds and club shortness with one partner. With the other I'd start with a strong club and everything is completelly different.

 

 

Hope jilly doesn't mind for spamming her thread. But wanna ask you, how would you bid the same hand with 2 small hearts instead of AK?

[han]

I'd rather play a structure where 3OM is a simple slam try agreeing opener's major suit, and my jumps to the four-level are splinters.

 

I think what you suggest is fine and the differences in comparison with Baze are marginal. You lose the spade splinter when hearts are trump, and you lose the lower keycards ask. In return you get 2 or 3 extra cuebidding steps. The fact that the splinter suit is hidden doesn't seem that important to me.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

.... But wanna ask you, how would you bid the same hand with 2 small hearts instead of AK?

Opener.............. Responder

A K x x............... Q J x x

J x x x................ x x

Q J..................... A K 10 x x x

A x x.................. x

 

1NT.....................2C

2H......................??

 

As long as bidding the LONG MINOR next w/4oM and you consider it at least GF -- no matter which structure one uses ( even if you play 4-suit transfers ) -- you will get to 4S:

 

In regular Baze:

1NT - 2C

2H - 3D! ( 4s/5+d, GF>>slammish )

??

... 3H!/3S! = cues agreeing Diam

... 3NT = agree neither; to play

... 4S = 4-4 in the Majors >> and Responder will PASS

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

And in my system where 3C! = GF >> slammish, and either:

a ) 4s/5+d or

b ) Ht fit, asking for cuebids ; where 3C! puppets to 3D! to ask which

1NT - 2C

2H - 3C!

3D! - 3H!( a ) whereas 3S! = ( b )

4S ( out of same options as above ) - pass

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

ps. Since I play 15-17 1NT ( and not a Big Cl system ), the following sequence you showed is NF for me:

1NT - 2C

2H - 2S = 8-9 invite, 4s but not 4h; or 4s/6m, weak

[Zelandakh]

Sorry Don, this post passed me by. I actually play Puppet by choice these days but I think the concept remains the same. When I played normal Stayman I used the agreement bids (3D for H and 3H for S) as modified SID. Also, the sequence 1NT - 2C - 2D - 2H - 2S works in exactly the same way as 1NT - 2C - 2S in normal Stayman with 3H as the agreement bid (see below for example).

 

1NT - 2C

2H

 

2S = range ask

2N = clubs (but note that slammy hands with 4M and longer clubs begin 2S)

3C = 5+ diamonds (weak or GF)

3D = agrees hearts

3H = INV

3S/4m = splinter

 

=====

1NT - 2C

2S

 

2N = nat

3C = diamonds

3D = minor suit Stayman

3H = agrees spades

3S = INV

4m/H = splinter

 

I am with awm about the relative importance of Gerber versus cues - otherwise it would be easy to assign a bid for keycards after 3D/3H.

 

In my structure, if I were playing a strong NT (I don't) it would go

 

1N - 2C = puppet Stayman

2D = no 5-card major

... - 2H = denies 4 hearts

2S = 4 spades

... - 4C = 4+ spades, 0-1 clubs

4D = slam interest, no diamond control

... - 4H = diamond control, no heart control

4S = no heart control

 

I think West is worth a slam advance with ace of the splinter suit even as a minimum - I am an incurable optimist I guess. *sigh*

[han]

Play that 3H, 4C, 4D and 4H all show a slam tries in spades. The natural 3D is useful for hands that do not have a spade fit.