Judgement

[Cascade]

[hv=pc=n&s=skj952hq983d7c975&n=sa763ha54dakj54c2&d=n&v=e&b=9&a=1dd1sp3sppp]266|200[/hv]

 

MPs (Edit: Scoring added)

 

Eleven tricks were made - finessing spade, ♥K onside and establishing the diamonds.

 

How do you assign the blame?

[TimG]

8 losers + 9th trump suggests to me that south should bid game.

[655321]

Was this IMPs or MPs?

 

South's pass might have been a bit conservative, but NV and with a singleton diamond it is understandable.

 

But North was counting losers (6 loser hand!) instead of playing bridge.

[Cascade]

Was this IMPs or MPs?

 

South's pass might have been a bit conservative, but NV and with a singleton diamond it is understandable.

 

But North was counting losers (6 loser hand!) instead of playing bridge.

 

Sorry MPs

[MrAce]

Was this IMPs or MPs?

 

South's pass might have been a bit conservative, but NV and with a singleton diamond it is understandable.

 

But North was counting losers (6 loser hand!) instead of playing bridge.

 

Amen :)

 

EDIT: i wanted to vote mainly North but i guess i clicked "entirely North"

[rduran1216]

South 80%

 

His 5th spade, well placed Q of Hearts, good trumps are all reasons to go. He'd rather have a stiff club than diamond, but even at these colors the 5th trump + shape make this a clear 4S bid to me.

 

North is close to a 4C bid, which south will love.

[mtvesuvius]

Mostly North. South's pass is "reasonable" at MPs (and NV), however North's bidding is just plain bad. If you don't splinter with the North cards, when will you?!

[rduran1216]

Mostly North. South's pass is "reasonable" at MPs (and NV), however North's bidding is just plain bad. If you don't splinter with the North cards, when will you?!

 

when I have decent major suit cards.

 

Whats to stop South from having bad trumps? You have to suspect at least 1 trump loser possibly 2. With a likely 4441 spades distribution getting our diamonds set up after a heart lead is gonna be tough.

 

All E needs is QJ10x spades and KQxx in hearts for 4S to be in bad shape

 

South is the one who knows trumps are not an issue and that he's got a heart card.

 

I think 4C is making the decision for your partnership, and it could be down VERY easily.

[Cascade]

Maybe I should add this is in a weak NT context so that north could be 17 or maybe even 16 balanced.

[the hog]

North's bidding was 100% correct. South is a bean counter, who felt he didn't see enough beans. He probably had one eye closed. Totally agree with rduran - a splinter is poor.

[mikeh]

Maybe I should add this is in a weak NT context so that north could be 17 or maybe even 16 balanced.

I think, with respect, that this is critical. A single raise will show either an unbalanced hand or a 15-16 1NT rebid, so a jump raise is often played as very strong...in my two weak nt partnerships, the N hand would be within that range, albeit towards the top. But the point is that it is in the range. In that context, S wears the blame.

 

Playing strong notrumps, I think the blame would be split, but don't actually think there is a huge amount to go around at mps. I think both bid conservatively, and that usually works out poorly...either could have bid aggressively and that would have saved the board.

[hotShot]

Unless 3♠ is agreed to be preemptive, I blame South.

 

North can't have all his values in ♠ since South has KJ himself.

We seem to have a a good ♠ fit and since South has 4♥ opps fit is more likely in ♣ than in ♥ or ♦.

If opps have 8+ cards in ♣ ] than North can only have 2-

So in a worst case scenario. North has 10 HCP in ♦ and 6 in ♠ and opps can draw 4 top tricks in ♣ and ♥, but would North really jump to 3♠ with something like:

[hv=pc=n&n=saq32h432dakqjc32]133|100[/hv]

[Cascade]

Unless 3♠ is agreed to be preemptive, I blame South.

 

North can't have all his values in ♠ since South has KJ himself.

We seem to have a a good ♠ fit and since South has 4♥ opps fit is more likely in ♣ than in ♥ or ♦.

If opps have 8+ cards in ♣ ] than North can only have 2-

So in a worst case scenario. North has 10 HCP in ♦ and 6 in ♠ and opps can draw 4 top tricks in ♣ and ♥, but would North really jump to 3♠ with something like:

[hv=pc=n&n=saq32h432dakqjc32]133|100[/hv]

 

Yes I think so.

 

It is interesting but in contrast to Mikeh's style I think a 3-level jump raise here is nominally played as 16-18. And many would upgrade some weaker distributional hands.

 

So maybe my thread title was incorrect and this is much more to do with system style than judgement.

[marcD]

I think no blame at MP. North is within range for 3♠ and South has a marginal 4♠ call at MP (singleton D does not look good even in a weak Notrump system). I think 4♣ by North is an overbid although I would definitely bid 4♠ over 2♥ showing 5S4H 5-9 which would be standard in some fields .

[Cascade]

I think no blame at MP. North is within range for 3♠ and South has a marginal 4♠ call at MP (singleton D does not look good even in a weak Notrump system). I think 4♣ by North is an overbid although I would definitely bid 4♠ over 2♥ showing 5S4H 5-9 which would be standard in some fields .

 

Indeed one of the problems for south on the actual auction was that his ♥Qxxx is of dubious value.

[han]

100% blame to north, 20% to south.

[MrAce]

100% blame to north, 20% to south.

 

Man...I admire your generosity with splitting the percentage :D

[han]

Well, it doesn't seem right to assign north less than 100% for that 3S bid. On the other hand, south could definitely have bid 4S.

[gwnn]

both, even if you're counting points North has 16+1(aces)+3(singleton), and even if you're counting points South has good trumps and 54 and why not play game when it's close?

 

90% North 70% South

[hotShot]

Yes I think so.

 

It is interesting but in contrast to Mikeh's style I think a 3-level jump raise here is nominally played as 16-18. And many would upgrade some weaker distributional hands.

 

So maybe my thread title was incorrect and this is much more to do with system style than judgement.

If this is a 3♠ bid

[hv=pc=n&n=saq32h432dakqjc32]133|100|

K&R (AQ32 432 AKQJ 32) = 16.40

[/hv]

 

probably this has to be a 4♠ bid, as it is about a K stronger.

[hv=pc=n&n=sa763ha54dakj54c2&d=n&v=e[]133|100|

K&R (A763 A54 AKJ54 2) = 19.30

 

[/hv]

[Fluffy]

I am not familiar with weak NT, but north has a game raise, splinter or whatever your methods.

[dake50]

How much stronger may South be for free bid 1S?

What is the bottom of Red immediately?

Play South for zip with 5+S?

 

How much IS the bottom of North 4C splinter?

 

I actually would redouble first as South with both majors well-held.

I also would have 4C with North hand rebidding to free 1S.

It doesn't force slam after all.

Play North for diamonds and S-fit jump as no more talk needed?

[mikeh]

Wayne gave, as an example of a jump raise, AKQJ xxx AQxx xx. In the style of weak 1N with which I am familiar, that would be a sound 2♠ raise.

 

Before anyone gets all excited...the whole point of the method (which is espoused by Kokish amongst others) is that the single raise shows either an unbalanced hand with 4 card support (hence a strong hand in playing strength) or a strong 1N opening bid with 4 card support.

 

AKQJ xxx AQxx xx is everyone's idea of a sound strong 1N, altho many would prefer more balanced honour distribution. In fact, the spade J is largely wasted opposite a 1♠ response.

 

I am not claiming this is a universal style for weak notrumpers...I have only the vaguest notion of how these hands are handled in the UK, for example.

 

The style is playable.....and it makes the 3♠ raise very strong indeed.

 

 

(A note to dak50: the 'free bid' idea was abandoned by most good players many decades ago. The tendency these days appears to be (from what I have seen and read) to respond to the opening bid as if the double had not occurred.)

 

If one is playing this style, and I had assumed, mistakenly it seems, that weak notrump implied this, then the blame for missing game is South's.

 

As for all of those who, having seen the hands, argue that N grossly underbid, let me ask how you'd assign the blame for[hv=pc=n&s=sa632ha54dakj42c6&n=sjt874h763d65ckq5]133|200[/hv]

 

In case you say, accurately enough, that this hand is contrived.....take a look....it rates to fail in 3♠! One needn't work very hard at all to find hands that rate to fail in game after the takeout double.....any minimum hand with weak spades is going to be in jeopardy.

 

In a strong 1N method, one could and probably should chalk this up to bad luck should opener splinter and the doubler turn up with KQx(x) in spades and a natural heart lead. But one of the advantages of the weak notrump/strong jump raise approach is that opener gets the essential strength of his hand off his chest without committing to a possibly unsustainable level.

[rduran1216]

I'm very surprised by people blaming north.

 

The hand Mike just posted could be worse.

 

Absent the LHO takeout double, I think bidding 4C over 1S is probably the best bid.

 

But with the added major suit information, 4C is just very poor.

[han]

Mikeh's hand is not only extremely contrived, it is also pointless. Does responder know that the KQ of clubs are wasted? If not, how can he pass this superstrong-3S bid? Couldn't south also hold an equally strong hand with more than 1 club, for example KQxx Ax Axxx AJxx? Hey, you probably make 5S on a non-diamond lead! Now, I wouldn't want to bid 3S with that hand but it is not stronger than the hand Cascade gave.

 

Somehow, we don't see too many ATB-threads where both players used good judgement to arrive at a game that had no chance because the hands fit terribly. Why not? Because it is normal and good bridge.

 

Besides the poor arguments, it also makes no sense to blame south because in the style that Kokish and mikeh play, 3S shows a very strong hand. Cascade stated right from the beginning that 3S can be a balanced 17- or 16-count. The fact that Kokish prefers to play this differently is completely irrelevant, a judgement question only makes sense in the context of a given style.