Four Aces

[bd71]

Matchpoints, them vul

 

AT875 A95 AT AJ8

 

Partner deals and opens: 1D-1S-2D

 

What are your thoughts and plan?

[kayin801]

I would just bid 2♥ (assuming it's forcing) so we can try to find the right spot, which might be spades. I really hope no one says 3NT. I'll worry about slam at my next turn if partner makes a non-min move, but if he tries 2NT or 3♦ I'm just bidding 3NT.

[Phil]

Agree with 2♥, although we may need to make a forcing continuation later. A forcing 2N would be nice here.

[mikeh]

My thoughts would be that I don't yet know either the level or the denomination in which we should play this hand, so I need to find more info.

 

2♥ is as good a stall as I can think of, altho we are going to be awkwardly placed over some of his possible continuations....what do we bid over 3♥, for instance?

 

3♣ is the other stall, but that leaves us even worse off in some cases, because we may be a level higher with not much more info.

 

I bid 2♥ and hope he bids 2N, over which I have what I think is an easy 4N.

 

I reserve my right to think about what to do over other rebids until they happen.

 

I agree that on this hand, a forcing 2N is great. But to play that requires (imo) detailed agreements about the meaning of 2♥ (which should include invitational 2N rebids, I think) and 2N (can it include 5-4 majors?) and so on.

[nige1]

Matchpoints, them vul

AT875 A95 AT AJ8

Partner deals and opens: 1D-1S-2D

What are your thoughts and plan?

Agree 2♥

[Cyberyeti]

Glad to be playing artificial forcing 2♥ here.

[pooltuna]

♥

Matchpoints, them vul

 

AT875 A95 AT AJ8

 

Partner deals and opens: 1D-1S-2D

 

What are your thoughts and plan?

 

Trying figure out which will score better 4♠ or 3NT. Gut feeling is 3NT as we probably have in the range of 28 to 30 HCP so I will try 3NT as a call now. IMO 2♥ is a bogus bid! Partner may have been cornered into a 2♦ call with 4♥ so I would just love to hear 4♥ from him over 2♥. He has already shown pretty much a minimum with 2♦ so I will not worry about missing slam.

[kayin801]

I bid 2♥ and hope he bids 2N, over which I have what I think is an easy 4N.

 

Now I'm thinking back and trying to figure what hands opener would even have for a 2NT bid after 2♥, given that he can no longer be balanced (though he could be 6322). Something like x, KJx, KQxxxx, KQx would make 6NT very good, but if his diamonds aren't good we have might have a tough time making ANY slam. Something like x, KQ, KQxxxx, Qxxx, or Qx, KJx, QJ9xxx, KQx or anything with a diamond loser will go down pretty often.

 

I guess after partner bids 2NT we should be perfectly safe in 4NT but I'm just not sure how often partner is going to diagnose a raise with no aces, even with that first example. Is our 4NT bid just trying to pick up if partner sandbagged with an aceless 16-17 cause he didn't have a good rebid before?

 

So maybe I'm arguing down my 3NT bid that I made earlier :P since over 2NT we rate to be okay in 4.

 

@pooltuna: in what world does opener rebid 4♥ over 2♥?

[mikeh]

Now I'm thinking back and trying to figure what hands opener would even have for a 2NT bid after 2♥, given that he can no longer be balanced (though he could be 6322). Something like x, KJx, KQxxxx, KQx would make 6NT very good, but if his diamonds aren't good we have might have a tough time making ANY slam. Something like x, KQ, KQxxxx, Qxxx, or Qx, KJx, QJ9xxx, KQx or anything with a diamond loser will go down pretty often.

 

I guess after partner bids 2NT we should be perfectly safe in 4NT but I'm just not sure how often partner is going to diagnose a raise with no aces, even with that first example. Is our 4NT bid just trying to pick up if partner sandbagged with an aceless 16-17 cause he didn't have a good rebid before?

 

So maybe I'm arguing down my 3NT bid that I made earlier :P since over 2NT we rate to be okay in 4.

 

@pooltuna: in what world does opener rebid 4♥ over 2♥?

 

I think that there are many, many hands on which he should rebid 2♦ then, over 2♥, 2N. Virtually any 2=2=6=3 hand with good(ish) diamonds....I really hate players who grab 1N over 1♠ with say xx Kx KQJxxx Kxx....even at mps, they pay a nice bonus for reaching and making 6♦, and rebidding 1N is usually the best way to avoid such contracts.

 

And just about every 1=3=6=3 will rebid this way with a club stopper (for the 2N bid).

 

As for acceptance, my initial post was going to posit some examples of aceless hands on which I think he should move over my 4N. In fact, my main concern is that the auction of 4N over 2N is going to miss some slams, but I don't see any real choice...driving to slam is just too committal for me. He certainly should raise to slam with an aceless 15 count, and will often be able to make the correct choice of 6♦, rather than 6N, if his diamonds are KQJxxx or better.

 

I agree with your comment about 4♥....I think it so obvious that no opener is ever allowed to raise beyond 3♥ that I didn't even mention it in my first post.

[gnasher]

Now I'm thinking back and trying to figure what hands opener would even have for a 2NT bid after 2♥, given that he can no longer be balanced (though he could be 6322). Something like x, KJx, KQxxxx, KQx would make 6NT very good, but if his diamonds aren't good we have might have a tough time making ANY slam. Something like x, KQ, KQxxxx, Qxxx, or Qx, KJx, QJ9xxx, KQx or anything with a diamond loser will go down pretty often.

 

I guess after partner bids 2NT we should be perfectly safe in 4NT but I'm just not sure how often partner is going to diagnose a raise with no aces, even with that first example. Is our 4NT bid just trying to pick up if partner sandbagged with an aceless 16-17 cause he didn't have a good rebid before?

 

So maybe I'm arguing down my 3NT bid that I made earlier :P since over 2NT we rate to be okay in 4.

x KQ KQxxxx Qxxx is an excellent 6♦.

 

Playing in diamonds, Qx KJx QJ9xxx KQx has twelve tricks if you bring in the diamonds or the hearts for no loser. It also has two losers, but that's to be expected when we have 14 cards.

 

If your examples tell us anything, it's that we should consider 6♦ opposite a minimum but (as it's matchpoints) 6NT opposite a maximum.

[kenrexford]

Odd point in the auction to start discussions. 2♥ is about obvious. What happens next determines what to do. So, rather than a lot of guesses, why not just get to what Opener's third call is?

[rduran1216]

Is partner not going to bid 4H over 2H with Qx KJxx KQxxxx x

 

This is different if u have some agreement about 2H, but I'm bidding 3C, which shows this same hand and can bid 4NT over the likely 3NT.

[kayin801]

x KQ KQxxxx Qxxx is an excellent 6♦.

 

Playing in diamonds, Qx KJx QJ9xxx KQx has twelve tricks if you bring in the diamonds or the hearts for no loser. It also has two losers, but that's to be expected when we have 14 cards.

 

If your examples tell us anything, it's that we should consider 6♦ opposite a minimum but (as it's matchpoints) 6NT opposite a maximum.

 

The best part is when I was constructing hands that one originally had 15 cards, but at least I caught myself there. Im pretty sure I meant KJ tight of hearts but who really knows. EDIT: nvm that makes no sense I have no clue what I meant. Oh well. Your point is made.

 

@rduran: if 2♥ is artificial and forcing (which it is for most people) then the hand you have is a 3♥ bid.

[the hog]

2NT which we play as forcing.

[bd71]

Odd point in the auction to start discussions. 2♥ is about obvious. What happens next determines what to do. So, rather than a lot of guesses, why not just get to what Opener's third call is?

 

The actual auction went off-the-track after 2♦, so that won't help. But I'll just lay out responder's hand for any further comments. The two hands are:

 

AT875 A95 AT AJ8

 

Q KQJ8 KQJ984 74

[Cyberyeti]

The actual auction went off-the-track after 2♦, so that won't help. But I'll just lay out responder's hand for any further comments. The two hands are:

 

AT875 A95 AT AJ8

 

Q KQJ8 KQJ984 74

Our auction would be 1♦-1♠-2♦-2♥-3♥(max 4-6)-4♦(slam try)-4♥(RKCB ♦)-4N(1/4)-5♦(sign off opposite 1 but expecting 4)-6♦(4 aces, nothing else)-6N

[kenrexford]

Our auction would be 1♦-1♠-2♦-2♥-3♥(max 4-6)-4♦(slam try)-4♥(RKCB ♦)-4N(1/4)-5♦(sign off opposite 1 but expecting 4)-6♦(4 aces, nothing else)-6N

 

If 4♦ was a slam try, and I have this hand as Opener, I am 100% confident that Responder has four Aces. Rather than sign off, I'd probably ask for Kings myself, to show grand interest.

[Cyberyeti]

If 4♦ was a slam try, and I have this hand as Opener, I am 100% confident that Responder has four Aces. Rather than sign off, I'd probably ask for Kings myself, to show grand interest.

Partner will automatically bid a king rather than 6♦ if he has one (5♦ is completely forcing if he has 4 aces), or 5N with something generally excellent without one, I know that I don't need to ask as 5♦ actually does that by our methods.

[pirate22]

To dangerous to bid 2hts-partner could well have a heart suit.so i would opt for a 3club bid,this should clarify the situation.

now if partner bids 3hts,it not an asking bid have u a heart factor.partner certainly not a 3 card spade suit,and partner has not got a 4 card club suit,picture now building known 4 hts 5 d and 2/2/blacks or 1/3 blacks.waste of time bidding asking for aces.so i now bid 6n/t,second choice 6 diamonds.

[Fluffy]

Is partner not going to bid 4H over 2H with Qx KJxx KQxxxx x

No.

[Fluffy]

After 1♦-1♠-2♦-2♥-3♥ wich shows 4 hearts, but only 5 diamonds since 2452 concentrated and most 1453 are possible, I would just bid 3NT wich shows a strong hand without 4 hearts. Partner will most likelly pass and we play 3NT.

[mike777]

3c

 

 

We are not told that 2h or 2nt is a game force in OP but 3c must be in standard bidding.

 

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on the actual hand raising 3h over 2h should not show anything more than a minimum...not some max 6-4. I guess for posters the 2h rebid is quite a wide range

 

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Many here play reverse flannery so 1minor=1s=2minor=2h is a gf or in my case around 12-13 with 5s and 4h.

 

Getting to 6 is tough esp at MP.

 

 

Will need to think about bidding 4nt over 3nt at some point.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

The actual auction went off-the-track after 2♦, so that won't help. But I'll just lay out responder's hand for any further comments. The two hands are:

 

AT875 A95 AT AJ8

 

Q KQJ8 KQJ984 74

I agree with Responder's 2H! ( over Opener's 2D rebid ) as a "cheapest new suit forcing; could be artificial" .

 

Next: Opener bids 3H showing 4 cards Hts and NO 3 cards Sp:

 

South................... North

1D...........................1S

2D...........................2H! (cheapest new suit forcing; could be artificial )

3H( 4h, no 3s)...........4D! ( Minorwood; RKC for Diam as trump )

4S ( 1 key )...............5C! ( dQ-ask, if 4NT were to play )

5H! ( dQ + hK )..........5S! ( 2nd K-ask; accounting for all key cards )

??

..6NT( Opener can count to 12 tricks as he is the only one who knows of the KQJ's )

..6D ( Opener denies any more K's with the hand from post # 12, rduran1216 )

[mike777]

I agree with Responder's 2H! ( over Opener's 2D rebid ) as a "cheapest new suit forcing; could be artificial" .

 

Next: Opener bids 3H showing 4 cards Hts and NO 3 cards Sp:

 

South................... North

1D...........................1S

2D...........................2H! (cheapest new suit forcing; could be artificial )

3H( 4h, no 3s)...........4D! ( Minorwood; RKC for Diam as trump )

4S ( 1 key )...............5C! ( dQ-ask, if 4NT were to play )

5H! ( dQ + hK )..........5S! ( 2nd K-ask; accounting for all key cards )

??

..6NT( Opener can count to 12 tricks as he is the only one who knows of the KQJ's )

..6D ( Opener denies any more K's with the hand from post # 12, rduran1216 )

 

 

so you play 5d if no d Q at MP?

I really dont like this auction. Pard can be really weak on this auction.

 

btw give pard:

 

Q...KJxx...KQxxxx...xx which is a very typical hand for partner. Change the JH to the QH and still not a good slam.

 

and you are in 6d with your bidding.

---

 

Anyway it seems these unbal. 14-16 range hands are somewhat rare in practice but they are tough when they come up.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

so you play 5d if no d Q at MP?

I'll bid 6D. If opener doesn't have the dQ, he should have some useful value elsewhere... unless he has opened " on the smell of an oily rag" ... like the hand you show next .

 

btw give pard:

 

Q...KJxx...KQxxxx...xx which is a very typical hand for partner.

typical... really?