To Bid or not to Bid

[Cascade]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa765hdk6532cak42&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=pp1s]133|200[/hv]

 

Matchpoints

All Vul

 

Would you Pass?

 

I did and was a little surprised by how many others passed.

 

If you Pass west passes and partner doubles, east passes ...

 

what now?

 

I am especially interested if you are going to bid some number of diamonds rather than cue-bid spades

[l milne]

pass, 2♠. Not too close.

[nige1]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa765hdk6532cak42&d=w&v=b&b=4&a=pp1s]133|200|Matchpoints

All Vul

Would you Pass?

I did and was a little surprised by how many others passed.

 

If you Pass west passes and partner doubles, east passes ...

what now?

I am especially interested if you are going to bid some number of diamonds rather than cue-bid spades

[/hv]

IMO ...

• Immediately over 1♠, _P = 10, 2♦ = 8, 2N = 4.
• After partner protects with a double, 2♦ = 10, 2♠ = 9, 3♦ = 6, 1N = 3, _P = 2. We seem to outgun opponents so 2♦ is not particularly dynamic but this auction seems strange. In particular, where are all the ♥? Probably that is where partner has most of his strength.

[straube]

Agree with Nigel. P and then 2D. Could well be a misfit hand and my values will work on defense.

[l milne]

Opposite 3 diamonds, I don't think our chances of making 3NT are that bad, and opposite 4 card support, 5♦ seems like it would have some chances.

 

I understand the fears but we still have a good hand and don't have to assume the worst hands for partner.

[Cascade]

Opposite 3 diamonds, I don't think our chances of making 3NT are that bad, and opposite 4 card support, 5♦ seems like it would have some chances.

 

I understand the fears but we still have a good hand and don't have to assume the worst hands for partner.

 

3NT seems like it will need a lot to me.

 

Fitting diamonds and heart stopper and either enough fitting diamonds for them to run or a second spade stopper. And even all of that might not be enough 1 spade 5 diamonds and 2 clubs - assuming partner's heart stopper is slow.

[dake50]

This is a reasonable deviation for a VUL Unu2NT. I try that.

That at least warns partner heart honors are not fitting.

[gnasher]

I'm amazed that anyone would bid only 2♦. Is partner supposed to bid again with x QJxx Axxx Qxxx?

 

I'd bid 2♠, then raise partner's minor to the four level. That's obviously not forcing - there is no hand where I can pass over 1♠ and then make a slam try opposite a passed hand.

[Cascade]

I'm amazed that anyone would bid only 2♦. Is partner supposed to bid again with x QJxx Axxx Qxxx?

 

I'd bid 2♠, then raise partner's minor to the four level. That's obviously not forcing - there is no hand where I can pass over 1♠ and then make a slam try opposite a passed hand.

 

I am worried that partner might bid hearts in preference to a minor. Is not a cue-bid more likely to be checking for a 4=4 heart fit.

 

Would you treat 3♦ and/or 4♦ as invitational?

[han]

Pass and 2S seem obvious. 2D is masterminding, 3D is a serious underbid and 4D is too unilateral.

[the hog]

Pass and 2S. Lol at the 2D bid after the pass. You would do this with a zero count.

[rhm]

Pass and 2S. Lol at the 2D bid after the pass. You would do this with a zero count.

 

True, but you can play all your life and I bet you will never have a zero count after this sequence and an intelligent passed partner will know this. You are virtually marked with strength, though you could have somewhat less. The 2♠ bid is rather pointless and partner is likely to bid ♥ over 2♠.

If this hand is going anywhere, you will need a fit and the best way to find out is to bid your suits and give partner a chance to raise one of them.

However, opponents seem to have a ♥ fit and Pass followed by 2♦ invites LHO to bid 2♥ now. That's why I would have preferred to bid 2♦ immediately over 1♠. With the ♥ void, an immediate 2♦ overcall is much less dangerous than it looks

 

Rainer Herrmann

[Fluffy]

I think it is a game too far situation I'd bid 3♦

 

I'd like that hearts are not mentioned in the bidding at all.

[han]

rhm, I don't think that partner will bid hearts over 2S. He will only do that if he is exactly 3-4-3-3 without a spade stopper, or if he has 5+ hearts. The latter is unlikely. With a balanced hand and a spade stopper partner should bid 2NT. With two 4-card suits, partner should bid the lower to give us room.

[OleBerg]

The essence of expert is the discipline of agreements.

 

This is a reasonable deviation for a VUL Unu2NT. I try that.

[han]

The title is "to bid or not to bid"... Are we supposed to consider passing?

[gwnn]

yes, on the first round, I think. I'm the only one here who seems to have considered 2♦ the first round but I wouldn't do it either. :)

[rhm]

yes, on the first round, I think. I'm the only one here who seems to have considered 2♦ the first round but I wouldn't do it either. :)

 

I would not only consider it, I would do it. :lol:

 

Rainer Herrmann

[OleBerg]

2♦ the first time, or else you'll never get your shape AND strength across.

 

I don't fear partner will run amok in hearts. Our hand is better as "support" for hearts than

 

♠ Qxx

♥ x

♦KQJxxx

♣ Axx

 

which I consider an obvious overcall.

 

Should I somehow pass on the first round, I try 2♠, it will take all the kings horses and all the kings men, to keep me out of game.

 

Pre-lol at "A 2-level overcall must show a 6-card suit."

[Cascade]

The title is "to bid or not to bid"... Are we supposed to consider passing?

 

Yes as Csaba said on the first round.

[Cascade]

2♦ the first time, or else you'll never get your shape AND strength across.

 

I don't fear partner will run amok in hearts. Our hand is better as "support" for hearts than

 

♠ Qxx

♥ x

♦KQJxxx

♣ Axx

 

which I consider an obvious overcall.

 

Should I somehow pass on the first round, I try 2♠, it will take all the kings horses and all the kings men, to keep me out of game.

 

Pre-lol at "A 2-level overcall must show a 6-card suit."

 

I didn't think I needed a six-bagger to bid 2♦ but K6532 didn't look like much of a five-card suit especially vulnerable opposite a passed hand when there were other signs of a possible misfit. Maybe this is more an IMP reasoning than a MP reasoning.

 

I was imagining over my 2♦ partner would often bid 2♥ and then I would have to bid 3♣ and we are at the three-level possibly with inadequate trumps.

 

Even after the double partner has quite a wide range of hands from:

 

stiff spade and four or five diamonds to doubleton (or maybe even tripleton spade) and three poor diamonds

 

and weak hearts to good hearts.

 

For me this made it unclear whether we wanted to be in game.

[MrAce]

PASS and 2♠

 

-2♦ overcall ? Err....whatever...

 

-Pass and bid 2♦ to double ? ......I wanna smoke what u guys are smoking :P

 

Obviously some experts here think balancing 1♠ requirements compared to balancing 1♣/♦/♥ are same, i disagree with that :)

 

Partner will not worry to find 4-4 ♥, he will bid his minor, if i have 4♥ i will bid it myself next turn. (There are also various usage of 2NT, over cue, by passed hand balancer, none of them is natural of course for obvious reasons)

[gnasher]

rhm, I don't think that partner will bid hearts over 2S. He will only do that if he is exactly 3-4-3-3 without a spade stopper, or if he has 5+ hearts. The latter is unlikely. With a balanced hand and a spade stopper partner should bid 2NT. With two 4-card suits, partner should bid the lower to give us room.

I agree with that, except that I think that with 3433 he should have overcalled 1NT, even with no spade stopper.

[OleBerg]

 

-2♦ overcall ? Err....whatever...

 

 

Well, you're very clever. Except you arn't.

 

Of course we all know the stories about the diamond-stack behind, a double and a telephone-number. And everybody is having a laugh at the expense of the silly 2♦-overcaller with the anaemic 5-card suit.

 

Thats the stories we remember.

 

The stories we forget, are all the times you get into ambigious sequnces after a pass, and have a mishap, like collecting an impressive +190 when partner holds:

 

♠ x

♥ KJ10x

♦ Axxxx

♣ Q10x

 

(Ok, gnasher collects 640)

 

But those mishaps goes by unnoticed, because the same thing happened at the other table. But a lost oppertunety to earn a gameswing is also a lost gameswing. But at the post-mortem everybody agrees, that it was "impossible to bid it, because you cannot overcall 2♦".

 

Further, the hand is incredibly strong if partner has a fit.

 

♠ xx

♥ xxxx

♦ Qxxxx

♣ Qx

 

Is enough for 5♦

 

While:

 

♠ xx

♥ xxxx

♦ QJ

♣ xxxxx

 

Makes 5♣ huge.

 

And, if you use all your imagination you migth be able to imagine LHO taking a bid, like, wonder of wonders, supporting his partner to 2♠. When this comes around, do you feel that 2NT do your hand justice?

 

The only place pass is a good bid, is in the post-mortem betweem players who zealously guards their reputation as "sound bidders". They have an easy time here, both because of the abovementioned reasons, but also because everytime you pass and back in, things are so ambigious that you will also almost always have a reasonable claim, that partner could have bid diffently.

[rhm]

I didn't think I needed a six-bagger to bid 2♦ but K6532 didn't look like much of a five-card suit especially vulnerable opposite a passed hand when there were other signs of a possible misfit. Maybe this is more an IMP reasoning than a MP reasoning.

 

I was imagining over my 2♦ partner would often bid 2♥ and then I would have to bid 3♣ and we are at the three-level possibly with inadequate trumps.

 

Even after the double partner has quite a wide range of hands from:

 

stiff spade and four or five diamonds to doubleton (or maybe even tripleton spade) and three poor diamonds

 

and weak hearts to good hearts.

 

For me this made it unclear whether we wanted to be in game.

 

I would agree with all of that if

 

1) partner would not have passed already, which denies a weak two in ♥. Since he hardly can have many ♠ (where he might refrain from opening a weak 2♥), this makes it unlikely that he has long, strong ♥

2) you have a ♥ void. (I would not over-call with any other ♥ holding)

 

So it is overwhelmingly likely that opponents have at least 8♥s between them and quite possibly more.

If opponents have a fit so do we. Yes partner could just be 3♠=5♥=2♦=3♣, but this is just one specific distribution.

Yes I would not be particularly thrilled if partner responded with 2♥ over my 2♦ overcall, but I would simply rebid 3♣ and still expect to land on my feet in the vast majority of cases.

 

Against these doomsday scenarios there are many more where we will have a fit and where sometimes only the sky will be the limit. It is real easy to construct such layouts. For example give partner as little as ♠x ♥xxxx ♦Ax ♣Txxxxx and 6♣ looks like a great contract to me. If you pass over 1♠ you are not likely to uncover your fit in time.

 

Rainer Herrmann