Grands that need good splits

[Fluffy]

♠AK10xx

♥10

♦AKx

♣AQxx

 

You open 1♣ in third position, and you relay your way up to 5♣ to find that partner has 2434 9-10(11) with ♥A, ♣K, ♦Q.

 

My partner had this hand, and he had avaible another query wich could be about ♣J or any other queen. But in the end he decided that grand would always need some good splits and 6♣ was good enough.

 

I tabled

 

♠xx

♥AJ9x

♦Qxx

♣KJ10x

 

And he made 13 tricks for a push.

 

I am not asking about this precise board, but more in general:

 

When I started to learn all these complex relay system I was excited about playing this kind of grands where all you needed was trumps 3-2 and a side suit not very badly, with the amaybe additional extra chances of partner having jack of trumps or some surprising queen, however if it happens that playing those slams is not worth it, I think that the system is not worth it either. Should this kind of grands be played?

[straube]

Your opponents got to the same spot, but weren't they guessing just a bit? Maybe they had a 2/1 auction that started 1S-1N, 3C and now responder had to take over and hope that opener really did have clubs and not 6313 or such. Your partner was at least thinking about the grand and perhaps next hand he'll hold the CJ and won't have to ask for it.

I think relays on average work better than interactive bidding. When they lose it's usually when what would be the slave hand has a source of tricks or a stiff honor in partner's suit that relays uncover inefficiently if at all. I'm sure on average that relays have helped me find more slams and grand slams than I would have found with natural methods.

[Free]

Relays are very good in distinguishing between small and grand slams imo. This one should've been bid. You can crossruff high as long as ♦ behave, even after a trump lead and a poor trump split.

 

Only once I bid a sharp grand with 10 trumps which went down. We had AKJxxx vs xxxx of trumps and all the rest was high or ruffable. Needless to say, trumps were Qxx offside and I was the only one to go down while the rest was playing small slam. Pretty much every other grand slam I've bid was a percentage action and gained us a huge advantage from time to time.

[OleBerg]

I believe your partner should have made the query.

 

The advantage you have gained by figuring out clubs is a good suit, is very liekely to be duplicated at the other table. If they play natural, a simple 1♠ opening is all it takes. So the percentages for a grand should not be upscaled much

 

Change the suits to 1-3-4-5 and 4-3-4-2.

 

Now it's another ball-game. Here it will be difficult for many to end up in diamonds, so 6♦ has a chance of yielding a swing already. Thus we upscale the percentages to bid a grand.

[dake50]

Absolutely!

Discover grand is well into good odds,

then to not bid it. Betrayal of partnership!

 

As much as I hate "by guess and by golly" bidding, this astounds.

What point to finding 55+% then not to intend to win with that knowledge?

[gwnn]

i think it's fun to ask for jacks, so i'd ask for jacks. of course i don't play for money or anything.

 

just to clarify i mean i don't think there's much between asking and not asking, so the fun factor is decisive. and of course really clearly bad bids are never fun for the purposes of this rule.

[Fluffy]

I think I explained poorly, when I said he had avaible another query, about queens or jacks, he actually has 2 different querys, and has to pick one of them.

[nige1]

♠ AK10xx ♥ 10 ♦ AKx ♣ AQxx

You open 1♣ in third position, and you relay your way up to 5♣ to find that partner has 2434 9-10(11) with ♥A, ♣K, ♦Q. My partner had this hand, and he had avaible another query wich could be about ♣J or any other queen. But in the end he decided that grand would always need some good splits and 6♣ was good enough. I tabled

♠ xx ♥ AJ9x ♦ Qxx ♣ KJ10x

And he made 13 tricks for a push. I am not asking about this precise board, but more in general: When I started to learn all these complex relay system I was excited about playing this kind of grands where all you needed was trumps 3-2 and a side suit not very badly, with the amaybe additional extra chances of partner having jack of trumps or some surprising queen, however if it happens that playing those slams is not worth it, I think that the system is not worth it either. Should this kind of grands be played?

I envy those who can bid so accurately. If I were clever enough to cope with such a system and in the position of Fluffy's partner I would ask for ♣J (a queen is unlikely and hoping for too much) and bid the grand, when partner showed it. You should exploit your psychological advantage that ingenious relay systems reach good contracts that resentful opponents realise are unlikely to be reached by their pedestrian team-mates.

[benlessard]

i would need the 9 or T of clubs to aim for 7.