Opening Bid

[Phil]

And your experience is that you rely on the opponents to help you in what may be a difficult auction? Personally I prefer to rely on my partner, but hey, each to his own.

 

Ron I was not even aware that you played this style of preferring a 5cM to a 6cm. If you are trolling just to make noise, please stop.

 

In many novice classes they are taught to always open the 5 card major, regardless of what other long suits they have outside.

 

If the hand were weaker, then 1♥ has something going for it I think. I have no idea how we can ever convince partner that we have six diamonds if we open 1♥. The potential of a diamond slam is so huge that I cannot see how we can rationally ignore it.

 

Discussing Steve Robinson's style as anything close to mainstream is LOL.

[the hog]

Ron I was not even aware that you played this style of preferring a 5cM to a 6cm. If you are trolling just to make noise, please stop.

 

In many novice classes they are taught to always open the 5 card major, regardless of what other long suits they have outside. This approach seems to have

 

If the hand were weaker, then 1♥ has something going for it I think. I have no idea how we can ever convince partner that we have six diamonds if we open 1♥. The potential of a diamond slam is so huge that I cannot see how we can rationally ignore it.

 

Discussing Steve Robinson's style as anything close to mainstream is LOL.

 

Just annoyed at the supercilious Mikeh, Phil. The comment was not aimed at you - look whom I quoted.

However, something you should consider is that just because a style is not mainstream, does not mean it is not valid or perhaps even not superior.

[CSGibson]

Maybe I need to bind a key with *reply "agree with han" *post. 1♥ I really don't like. Lying to partner just seems unnecessary here.

 

Also, what would 1♦-1♠-3♥ be for most people?

 

for me, a multi-ranged splinter, either 14-16 HCP with a stiff ♥, or 20+ HCP with a stiff ♥. 17-19 HCP with a stiff would make a 4 level splinter

[Phil]

Just annoyed at the supercilious Mikeh, Phil. The comment was not aimed at you - look whom I quoted.

However, something you should consider is that just because a style is not mainstream, does not mean it is not valid or perhaps even not superior.

 

I think the burden of proof is on the minority view and presenting a fallacious argument does not validate it.

 

Over the years I've played plenty of things that many would not consider mainstream that I have dropped. Bidding theory changes for sure, but I really doubt the mainstream view about the effectiveness of opening with your longest suit is going to be disproven anytime soon.

[Fluffy]

the mainstream might be right on general, but if you are clever enough, knowing there are alternatives and using the flexibility natural systems give you to your advantage will give you better results than just following blindly whatever herd's arbitrary rule.

[mikeh]

However, something you should consider is that just because a style is not mainstream, does not mean it is not valid or perhaps even not superior.

Your basic point is valid but something you should consider is that the vast majority of ideas dismissed as crackpot turn out to have been....crackpot.

 

If only 5% (say) of novel ideas are good, it is probably an error to assume that one's particular novel idea is more likely good than bad, no matter how high an opinion one has of oneself.

[Finch]

I open at the 1-level on all sorts of hands that other people open 2C. I once made a grand slam try after the auction had started 1D P P and RHO foolishly protected (grand was on a finesse).

 

My current rule for opening 2C is that I will (at least consider) open(ing) 2C if there are hands where partner will pass me out at the 1-level where slam is good. Here's one: partner will pass 1D on xxxx Qxxxx xx xx and grand slam is playable.

 

Even saying that, I might open 1D in first seat, when there's a much better chance that someone will bid, and give me a chance to describe my hand.

 

But in fourth seat, I'm going against my normal style and opening 2C. Once both LHO and RHO have passed in 1st/3rd seat there's a very good chance of an uncontested auction, and I'm not unhappy with 2C - 2D - 3D - 3S/3NT - 4H. This seems to leave me better off even if partner is going to respond to 1D

 

Think of an auction starting:

 

1D - 1S

2H - 2NT (lebensohl)

3H

 

Do you play 3H as forcing? Sure? What would you do with a 1-5-6-1 14-count that wanted to bid out its shape?

 

Even if you play 3H as forcing, partner rebids (say) 3NT over it, and are you going to pull? If you are, how does partner know you've got this hand than the same one without the ace of spades?

 

So I am opening 2C, and this will come as a shock to many of my regular partners!

[Finch]

p.s. there is a huge difference between

 

(i) agreeing with partner to play a strict 5-card-major first style, in which opening 1M and rebidding a minor lots of times is likely (or at least allowed) to be a canape even with a very strong hand,and

 

(ii) opening this hand 1H in any standard method

[Hanoi5]

My current rule for opening 2C is that I will (at least consider) open(ing) 2C if there are hands where partner will pass me out at the 1-level where slam is good.

 

Don't you consider the opponents when deciding this? There are 21 HCP's outside you hand and 11 spades (not to say 13 clubs). How likely is it to have the bidding go 1♦-Pa-Pa-Pa? I suppose being fourth changes this a bit, but by how much?

[mtvesuvius]

I open 1♦. I have never seen much good come from opening these hands with 2♣. In the past week in Orlando, I saw three auctions begin something like: 2♣ - (2♠) - P - (3♠) - 6♥/♦

 

Opening this 1♦ gives us the greatest amount of time to describe the hand, and I definitely do not expect it to be passed out! Since when do the opponents pass holding half the deck and a bunch of spades?! And to the hog: I like to rely on my opponents to help me out of tough situations sometimes. Often it's the only way to show a shapely hand at a manageable level. In summary, the concern that 1♦ will be passed out is fairly ridiculous.

[the hog]

"And to the hog: I like to rely on my opponents to help me out of tough situations sometimes."

 

In that case I would love to play against you. You would make it sooooo easy.

[mike777]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa8hak852dakj853c&d=w&v=e&b=16&a=ppp]133|200[/hv]

2c easy

 

fourth seat.

 

I can rebid 3h showing long d and 4+ h

 

 

 

have not read the forum posts but I do know for years that the forum hates to open 2c with two suited hands..

[655321]

And to the hog: I like to rely on my opponents to help me out of tough situations sometimes.

 

In that case I would love to play against you. You would make it sooooo easy.

 

Why do you make posts like this?

 

Mtvesuvius has represented the USA internationally at the age of 14. I don't think it is too unkind to point out that his opponents already have a much tougher time than your opponents ever did.

[mycroft]

When *I* open that hand 2C, if I'm *lucky*, I wrongside the diamond contract. If I'm unlucky, it goes 2C-X (or 3C, whichever is clubs)-p (GF)-5C. Enjoy.

[kfay]

When *I* open that hand 2C, if I'm *lucky*, I wrongside the diamond contract. If I'm unlucky, it goes 2C-X (or 3C, whichever is clubs)-p (GF)-5C. Enjoy.

You play PDI, right? This is even less annoying than your standard preempt.

 

Anyway so you open 1♦, LHO bids 2♣, partner passes and RHO bids 5♣... actually you're even worse off in this scenario.

[mycroft]

I don't know what PDI is (pass denies interest? if so, no). Pass, in standard American, is "unspecified game force". So, we know partner doesn't have 5 cards in a "black suit" (spades, of course) to 2/top 3, and she's got an ace or a king somewhere (in my partnership case, or two queens). It's clearly safe to do anything (including pass - it's forcing), but what? Pull 5S to 6C?

 

Over 1D:

- 2C means something. X/3C over 2C at all white simply means LHO's got more than his share of the 13 outstanding clubs. Unless it's 100 honours in clubs and out, it's probably the SK or a losing red-suit finesse.

- pass means something (or means "nothing", if you will). Yeah, the two red queens is enough for a red slam. But after 2C, I don't have a bid for "unless your control is in clubs, bid slam in a red suit". After 1D, I have a hope of getting that across (even if the chance of much more than both red queens is much lower).

 

Actually, my scenario is more like 1D-*3*C-p-5C, or 1D-3C-X (may be offshape) -5C than 1D-2C-p-5C, and at least in these auctions, 1D is, in fact, one of my suits. And 2C auctions will pass with spade hands that partner will show after 1D and competition.

 

Note: I play Precision frequently. We've got the same problem as the 2C bidders, only more so (although some hands 2C bidders will pass, we will do something other than card-showing semi-positive).

 

Now that I think about it, a scary 2C auction is 2C-3C-p-*4*C. Now partner could have as many as 5 (yeah, unlikely, but 4 is very possible. Of course, so is 2) clubs. Good luck sorting this one out before it's too high.

[mtvesuvius]

PDI = Pass-Double Inversion (inverting the meanings of Pass and Double in forcing pass sequences, so X = I want to bid, P = I want to defend (or pass and pull))

[mycroft]

Ah, sorry Kevin, thanks Adam, you're talking about opener's rebid. That certainly helps, but I'm not sure how much is PDI and how much is simply "it's a forcing pass auction", whereas the 1D auctions aren't. The two keys are:

 

1) any club card, including the Ace, is irrelevant

2) secondary honours are huge in red suits, irrelevant in spades, and partner won't know which suit to discount the Q in.

 

Plus, you're committing to slam when partner has spades; 1D...5H is committing to slam when partner has diamonds-better-than-hearts.

 

On a total tangent, I don't know which one is better in avoiding the good 7C sac, or prompting the bad one...

[han]

Anyway so you open 1♦, LHO bids 2♣, partner passes and RHO bids 5♣... actually you're even worse off in this scenario.

 

Are you? I would bid 5H and even though it could be terrible, I think we're in a better position than after having opened 2C and seeing 5C come back to us.

 

Opening 2D (multi, weak with a major, very strong balanced or GF with diamonds) would work about equally well as opening 1D.

[Finch]

The opponents are vul against not and have passed in first and third seats. Those who think that the auction will be at 5C by the time it gets back to us seem to have missed that point.

I can't get excited about this hand. I'd open 1D in first or second seat. We just seem to have been given the opportunity to tell partner how good our hand is.

[olien]

Why not just play fantunes? and I think the reality that the auction will stay alive after (p)-p-(p)-1♦// (p)-p is close to nil. The opps know that I have a huge hand, and are not going to be willing to keep the bidding alive. Although, I will still risk it and open 1♦ because I think the hand is worse to describe after a 2♣ opening. Agree with Han that it would be nice to have a 2♦ opening that includes strong hands with primary ♦s. (I like to play it as 22-23 balanced or any 3-suiter or primary ♦s, but I'm sure I'm in the minority view on that one.)