2N in third/fourth

[straube]

In the context of a relay system, we may find our 2N freed up in 3rd and 4th chair. Would it make sense to use 2N there as 20-21 (or about that anyway) so as to get that message out before preemption...or do we want to open 1C with that to preserve relays and try to get to slam when responder is very distributional. 2N is such a slam killer, but we open light and our passed hand is lucky to have 10 points. I'm thinking that we want to show the 20-21 right away. Thoughts?

[dake50]

You are thinking this backwards.

2NT with an unpassed partner has all the upside

good hands(near/full openers =slammy) to counter the busts.

With a passed partner you are mainly keeping the downside cases.

Use 2NT in 3-,4-seat for special cases.

I use 2S, 2NT as namyats: solid/near solid with a void.

Alert partner 1xA may be slammy. Then namyats 4m has no void -- A-ask worthwhile.

[Fluffy]

what???

 

2NT biggest dissadvantages is that partner has no room for slam exploration, if you can get rid of those well, you can then try natural 2NT, but natural 2NT is a bad opening anyway, I don't think you will wanna use it regardless. Surelly you can find whatever wich is better. Specially in third position.

[straube]

We would miss some slams. Respnder could not have as good as x AKxx Kxx xxxxx bit might have xx AQxxx x Qxxxx. otoh on hands where only game is in focus, opening 2N seems like it prepares better for interference. I've heard Meckwell are happy with their 2N opening for that very reason. Appreciate the responses.

[awm]

There are a lot of disadvantages to opening 2NT. These include: (1) Hard to look for light fit-based slams, but also (2) Hard to avoid 3NT if a suit is wide open (3) Cannot get out in 1NT or two of a suit when partner has garbage (4) Often have to "bash" 3NT on hands where it might not make.

 

For example, say you have ♣Qxxxxx and out opposite a 2NT opening. If partner holds ♣AKx or ♣Kxxx, then you may well be making 3NT. If partner has ♣Ax chances are you don't even make 2NT. So the textbook action is to raise to 3NT... but you can see that if partner opened/rebid 1NT showing the same point range, you would be much better off inviting with 3♣, which allows partner to bid 3NT when he has the right club holding or play in 3♣ (much more likely to make than 2NT) when he has ♣Ax or whatever.

 

As another example, suppose you hold ♠x ♥Kxxx ♦Kxxx ♣xxxx opposite partner's 2NT. The normal action is to bid stayman (or puppet), determine if you have a 4-4 heart fit, and bid 3NT if not. But partner could easily hold ♠xxx ♥AQx ♦AQJx ♣AKx where 3NT fails on a spade lead, with 5♦ looking excellent and even 6♦ having good play. Again, if partner had opened or rebid 1NT showing the same point range, you'd presumably have a way to show 1444 GF and let partner do the appropriate thing.

 

With this said, you do sometimes run into trouble after strong club and interference, because your hand is just good enough not to feel comfortable passing. For example, after 1♣-(3♠) and two passes, do you balance or not? If partner had something like 8 hcp he would've acted (so you can pass with 16-18 balanced and be fairly safe) but partner could easily hold something like 5-6 hcp where game is really good opposite your 20-21. Then again, partner could have garbage too.

 

Personally I'm not a big believer in the 2NT opening, feeling that I do better to open 1♣ despite the occasional problem hand. Obviously Meckwell feel differently. It's true that when partner's a passed hand you are less likely to have the "cannot bid slams" issue but I think problems (2)-(4) are still quite frequent... actually problem (3) becomes more frequent than it would otherwise be.

 

Another thing that may be worth noting is that the 2NT opening gains you "field protection" and that this may have some inherent value especially to pairs who are strong players relative to the field like Meckwell. Many of the bad results and problem hands that you get because of the 2NT opening will be faced by most pairs in the field anyway.

[blackshoe]

One way to deal with some of these problems is to agree that 2NT shows 25-26 balanced (9 controls) and is forcing to game. That way you have room below 3NT to look for a major suit fit.

[Zelandakh]

In 4th seat I like to play 2NT as natural. There simply is not a more useful purpose for this bid that I have found. Just select the level that best matches the rest of your 1C structure - for me that is 21-22 but it may well be different for you. For 3rd seat there is a big upside in playing 2NT as some form of preempt. There are several options here which will largely depend on your other 2-bid choices.

[gwnn]

Has nobody mentioned yet how annoying it can be when 4th seat gets a little lead direct in and we lose a lot of matchpoints through it?

 

(

1♣-p-1♦-(annoying lead direct) as opposed to

2N-p-3N

)