Free Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 [hv=d=e&v=n&s=sj92h9875daj95c87]133|100|Scoring: MP[/hv] Bidding went: 1♣ - pass - 1♦ - pass1♥ - pass - 2♣ - passpass - ? And you play with a partner who isn't great in competitive bidding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whereagles Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 I can't bid. Pard has points and, since he's not a good player, is bound to take any bid by me far more seriously than I want. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gerben47 Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Okay I'll take the bait and double. What horrible things will happen to me now, given your warning? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skorchev Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Hum, doesn't matter what's the level of my partner i will pass because I trust him, isn't normal to pass two times with good hand. I guess someone of opps psyche me or he is lower skill level than my partner! B) Stefan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Much as I hate to do it, I pass. Here's what I think is going on: [hv=n=sj92h9875daj95c87&w=sk765hak62d76ckt6&e=sqt8hqdkqt432c432&s=sa43hjt43d8caqj95]399|300|[/hv] Partner didn't double the first time because he had 3 spades and 1 diamond. Partner didn't double the second time because they've bid his suits! The most logical reason why your partner isn't bidding is because he has clubs. If I had a few more points, I'd double for penalty (well, I'd double for takeout expecting partner to convert(, and watch them flail. But I don't, and you can move the opponent's honors around until the point that they can make 2D. Let them thrash around in 2C for down 4 or whatever. How did I do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted August 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 ~snip~How did I do? I think you need to read the initial post and especially the bidding again... B) Your RHO starts the bidding, and you're in the balancing seat after your LHO supported his partner's ♣s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 ~snip~How did I do? I think you need to read the initial post and especially the bidding again... B) Your RHO starts the bidding, and you're in the balancing seat after your LHO supported his partner's ♣s. Sorry, I had N/S reversed. Fixed. NOW how did I do? :) It's one of those things about preferential minor- every once in a while, the opps will end up in a 3-3 fit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 ~snip~How did I do? I think you need to read the initial post and especially the bidding again... B) Your RHO starts the bidding, and you're in the balancing seat after your LHO supported his partner's ♣s. Sorry, I had N/S reversed. Fixed. NOW how did I do? :) It's one of those things about preferential minor- every once in a while, the opps will end up in a 3-3 fit. Not even close I am afraid. With that EAST hand, four potential bids standout, none of which is 2♣. 1NT rebid (not 2♣ as has a spade stopper and source of tricks2NT rebid (not 2♣, see above but add an up-evaluation for long diamonds and two tens2♦ rebid (not 2♣, as this hand is all diamonds with some queens3♦ rebid (not 2♣, for those who are agressive but want to place the emphasis on diamonds for potential NT contract (didn't use fourht suit forcing, so not forcing). I guess at matchpoints I would rebid 2♦ or 1NT myself. I can't imagine anyone serioiusly considering a 2♣ rebid... at least, I would never consider it. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted August 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 ~snip~How did I do? I think you need to read the initial post and especially the bidding again... B) Your RHO starts the bidding, and you're in the balancing seat after your LHO supported his partner's ♣s. Sorry, I had N/S reversed. Fixed. NOW how did I do? :) It's one of those things about preferential minor- every once in a while, the opps will end up in a 3-3 fit. I don't think any good player rebids 2♣ on a 3 card with a clear 2♦ rebid showing his hand. Especially at MP's!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 You would have to have utter contempt for your partners bridge skills to bid here. He is marked with some hcp of course. If I had to guess, I would say he is on minimum of 11 or 12, unless the opponents have underbid (I assume they don't have 26 points (partner would have 8), 25 pts (he would have 9), or 24 points (he would have 10) since with 24+ they would have tried harder for game. So what is partners maximum? Well, it could be as much as 16 or 17, but we know (suspect) he would have taken action with that. So let's say he could have around 15 for a realistic max. Next for some distributional analysis. Partner does not have FIVE spades, or he probably might have bid them, if not the first time, then surely the second time over 2♣. Partner is not 4-4 in the majors or he would have doubled 1♦. So he has 3 or 4 ♠, and with 4♠, a maximum of 3♥. What is his heart minimum? Surely if he had only 1♥, they would have bid hearts again, so he has 2 to 4 hearts. What about the minors? Partner has at least six cards there, and you have at least a 4-3 fit in diamonds, and maybe a 5-4 or 4-4. The question becomes do you want to press your luck and bid 2♦ on this junk? I suspect, partner is either 4-3-3-3 or 4-2-4-3. or 3-3-4-3. or 3-2-5-3. or on a good day, 3-2-6-2, in this latter case, EAST was temporizing with a three card diamond suit. So you could feel failry safe bidding 2♦ assuming partner would not get carried away with his 12-14 point "average" range (I think JTFANCLUB hand is not realistic because everyone would either rebid 2♦ with that six card suit or rebid 1NT (this is matchpoints after all). Against that, at matchpoints, 2♣ is typically not a good contract. I used BridgeBrowser to examine over 1.35 million BBO tournment contract records for 2♣ contract (no double, no redouble). As can be expected, the average matchpoint (and imp score) was below average (and negative at imps). When you look at all 2♣ contracts without regard to vulnerability, the side playing 2♣ averaged ~44%. and an average score (pluses and minus) of aobut +33 (2♣ making would be 90), and an average number of tricks of 8.23. When you examine just the non-vulnerable 2♣ contracts (3897 of them, 1478 of them at matchpoints), the scores got better for the side playing 2♣, presumably due to the defeats costing only 50/trick rather than 100. The average number of tricks won was essentially the same, but the MP (and imp) scores improved. The observed MP score was now nearly 47.3% percent, and the score rose to 47. So the question becomes do you want to rock the contract that, on average is bad (but not horribly bad) for the opponents? And if so, how do you do it? I think I would always pass here unless I was shooting. My partner's spade and club cards rate to be in front of my RHO (hookable), and my diamond cards are in front of the diamond bidder. Also, what ever heart honors my partner has, they are poorly placed too. In otherwords, honor location on this hand seems VERY. VERY bad for us, and very good for them. This suggest that they are in the wrong contract. With our honors well placed for them, they probably would have scored much better in notrump. But suppose I wanted to be a hero and push them. After all, if they go to 3♣ our chances for a good result (as compared to 2♣ increase. If I wanted to do something, I would bid 2♦ as I figure that is the best fit we will have. Partner will not take 2♦ too seriously as I couldn't overcall 1♦ on the first round, and he will have a good estimate of my diamond legnth by looking at his and figuring his RHO for four diamonds due to the bid he made. So 2♦ is the safest bid we can make (ohter than pass). So, pass seems clear to me, but if you JUST GOT TO DO SOMETHING, because a 52.7% score isn't exciting enough for you, then what you have to do is bid diamonds, not double. However, I think the odds favor the opponents being in a worse spot than ohters, as clearly they could play NT, and probably score a lot better (not to mention a possible 4-3 spade fit they might have). BridgeBrowser is interesting in that it lets you break down the auctions, so among the 4233 non vul 2♣ contracts, you can look at the ones that went 1C=1D=1H=2C all pass to see how those scored. For this analysis, I used pass-1C-1D-1H-2C as the same auction. No ohter bids (and no interference) was allowed. There was 21 such auctions at imps, for an average score of a plus 0.317 imps, and a total of 13 such auctions at matchpoint for an average score of 50.15 score. So while this pool is low, it seems getting to 2♣ by this manner suggest the opponents know more of what they are doing. Still, I guess I would pass...but this is at least some food for thought. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 I don't think any good player rebids 2♣ on a 3 card with a clear 2♦ rebid showing his hand. Especially at MP's!! Yeah, but it's a club, and I'm assuming not a good one based on what you said about your partner. I think my point was...there's simply not enough points at this table. Somebody has misbid their hand, and me being who I am, I'm assuming it's the opponents. I shoulda just said that the first time, huh? Turn a small diamond into a club in responder's hand, and he has 3154. Would that make you happier? I'm still passing. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted August 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 Well, I got this hand, and I was thinking to bid, perhaps 2♠ in a 4-3 with my small doubleton ♣ might be playable (perhaps -1). However, after some analyse, I decided to pass, since 2♣ would probably be a bad score, and I might put them in 2NT for a better score. We played the hand, and it seemed like RHO gave me a lot more high cards than I actually had. He made 2♣= instead of +1 or +2 perhaps (was 1NT+1 at most other tables) and RHO asked to see my hand afterwards. I showed it and he was mad cause I had to think before I passed. He thought it was a clearcut pass, nothing to think about. He accused me of misleading him. After this poll, it seems like about 30% of the people bid or at least think before passing. This player is a good scoring player, but he doesn't understand bidding with less than a good 4 card, playing in 4-3 fits,...I also explained him that I usually don't pass 2 times with a decent hand (and he should know that imo since we play almost every week against eachother), so it was his own fault he had a bottom. With more strength, I would've bid 1NT after his 1♥ bid almost for sure. But he was too mad to understand anything I tried to explain him... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 So, don't leave me in suspense here...what did your partner have? :) I always pause as the passout hand. I'm busy memorizing the bidding, figuring out point counts, making sure I don't have any questions, giving my partner time to memorize the bidding, etc. The only time I don't pause is when the auction is so straightforward that there's nothing to remember or question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Posted August 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 I don't remember exactly :) I know RHO had a 4-4-1-4, LHO had a 2-3-4-4... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jtfanclub Posted August 24, 2004 Report Share Posted August 24, 2004 I don't remember exactly :) I know RHO had a 4-4-1-4, LHO had a 2-3-4-4... OK, I'm done editing. Did I get it right? [hv=n=sj92h9875daj95c87&w=sxxxxhxxxxdxcxxxx&e=syyhyyydyyyycyyyy&s=szzzzhzzdzzzzczzz]399|300|[/hv] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1eyedjack Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 I have some sympathy for Free's opponent on this hand, but that is not the point - if he doesn't like the result he should get a ruling from the director. BTW how does 2D fair your way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inquiry Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 I have some sympathy for Free's opponent on this hand, but that is not the point - if he doesn't like the result he should get a ruling from the director. BTW how does 2D fair your way? The law suggest that 2♦ might not fair too badly (yes I know the law is often not right). The total tricks here would seem to be 16. If EW can make 2♣ (-90), they you should be able to make 2♦ (+90). If EW can make 3♣ (-110), then you will have only 7 tricks in two diamnonds (-50, or -100 if doubled). This hand shows why, I think, you might stop and consider bidding 2♦ (but not double, as partner would bid spades, maybe even with a three card suit)...Problem is you may push them to 2NT or maybe you can only win 6 tricks due to poor honor placements (if they can make 4clubs). Bigger problem, experience has taught me that most partners can't take this joke... when you balance back with 2♦ and catch them with diamonds, they hang you out to dry by bidding 3♦ if opponents take another call. Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikestar Posted August 25, 2004 Report Share Posted August 25, 2004 This reminds me of a hand I played many years ago. I was a bright beginner and the other three were . . . beginners. [hv=d=w&v=n&w=saxxxhaxxxdaxc765&e=sqxxxhqdqxxxxc432]266|100|Scoring: Rubber[/hv] The auction went 1C-(P)-2C-(P)-P-(P)! The opening lead was a small heart, South covering dummy's stiff Queen with the King. I made nine tricks: three Aces and six trumps on a crossruff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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