Splinter or Jacoby 2NT?

[mikestar13]

I voted splinter, but with 5 good ♠, the hand has a lot more playing strength than I envisioned. Worth 2♠ if playing SJS (especially Soloway). If playing WJS (or some other treatment)--very common these days, I use WJS myself, I don't mind 1♠ followed by FSF at all.

[kenrexford]

I like the comment at the very end of the article, which stated my view on this question quite nicely. I assume that the comment was added by Steve Robinson:

 

When you use Jacoby 2NT, you want to become the captain. When you splinter you want opener to become the captain. In other words, you Jacoby 2NT when you want to learn about opener’s hand. You splinter when you want opener to learn about your hand.

 

How do you decide which one is appropriate? That is a matter of judgment and experience. However, there are some guidelines. If you can describe your hand nearly perfectly with a splinter bid, that is the route you should take. If your hand is very strong, it is likely that you should be the captain and use Jacoby 2NT to request information from partner. Also, you know that you need only to obtain some very specific information from partner to place the contract accurately, you should become the captain and use Jacoby 2NT.

 

The example hand is somewhat in-between the two extremes, and either route might work. For that matter, bidding 1♠ over 1♥ might work. I would probably bid 2NT since a diamond splinter over a 1♥ opening leaves no room for partner to explore for slam below game.

 

 

The corollary to Robinson's comment (with which I agree), which is why I ended up where I ended up, is that a 2/1 sequence is one where you do not want to commit, yet, to a determination as to who should be captain. In other words, the reason why a 2/1 GF sequence works better (IMO) on the "in between" hands is that you defer that question (who is captain) until after more info is exchanged.

 

So, by bidding 2♣ (ifd systemically allowed), you retain ability to defer or seize as things develop, while prepping to set trumps on route before that call is made.

[kenrexford]

Ken, you have surely got to be joking, if you think that the 'problem' auction you fear is any kind of problem at all. Do you ever listen to auctions?

 

Think about the sequence you gave....I bid 3♣ FSF over 2♦, and partner bids 3N...what's he got?

 

He has 5=4 in the reds and probably 1=3 in the blacks. He has no significant extras since he made a call that we will often pass. We now pull 3N to 4♥, announcing a hand with slam interest, otherwise we would have jumped to 4♥ over his (non-forcing and therefore limited) 2♦ rebid. So he knows we have primary spades, real heart support and some extras but not a lot, since we have also made a bid that is non-forcing.

 

Now...is this perfect? No, of course not. He is still in the dark about some important specifics, but bear in mind that with most of our hcp opposite shortness, this hand actually isn't as strong as it started out to be: x KQxxx KQxx A10x is a very strong hand for him in the circumstances, and slam is not very good on the (almost) marked club lead.

 

So, I will admit that IF he has a 1=5=4=3 hand with an ordinary opener, I may lose a little accuracy, altho it usually won't matter. But if he raises spades, rebids notrump, rebids 2♣, rebids hearts...all of which are collectively far more probable than your feared but not fearsome sequence, I will be at least as well positioned as any splinterers or 2N bidders. Maybe you wouldn't be? But, as is evident from many threads, you and I don't exactly bid alike, and I am comfortable that I would be ok.

 

 

I'll concede that point as very valid. 1♠ as an option may be superior to 2NT or a Splinter, especially if the style of bidding better caters to that option over the 2/1 option. I still think that sucks over 2/1 sequences, but perhaps you cannot bid 2/1 because it would mislead in your approach or because the predicted sequence after 2♣ in your approach would suck more. Been there.

[han]

I would bid 1S. It is true that I won't be able to show my 4-card heart support.

 

The alternatives for me are 2C (GF relay) and 4D. My hand is too strong for the 2NT raise which we play more limited. I don't like 2C since after hearing partner's shape and strength I won't often be able to place the contract.

 

I don't like 4D because the spades are so strong and the clubs are so weak. There is also no room left after 4D which makes it worse. 4D is my second choice though, I play this as a strong splinter (about 13-15) so it is right in terms of values and support.

 

I wouldn't be surprised if 4D works out more often than 1S.

[masse24]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakjt8hat52d6cj92&n=shk87643dak8ckqt4]133|200[/hv]

 

FWIW Both hands (finally) shown above. :unsure:

[ArtK78]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakjt8hat52d6cj92&n=shk87643dak8ckqt4]133|200[/hv]

 

FWIW Both hands (finally) shown above. :unsure:

 

I know that I could not sleep nights since last November waiting for both hands to be shown.

[Zelandakh]

FWIW Both hands (finally) shown above. :unsure:

 

So the auction

1H - 2S

2N - 4D

4N - 5D

6H looks very easy*

 

* where

2S = 4+ hearts, mini-splinter or in-between splinter

4D = in-between splinter and singleton diamond

4N = xRKCB

5D = 1 or 3

[TWO4BRIDGE]

So the auction

1H - 2S

2N - 4D

4N - 5D

6H looks very easy*

 

* where

2S = 4+ hearts, mini-splinter or in-between splinter

4D = in-between splinter and singleton diamond

4N = xRKCB

5D = 1 or 3

I think you meant 5D = 1 or 4 ...

( I assume 4NT! = xRKCB is Meckwell's Voidwood for Hts with a Sp void ...)

 

Regardless, what if that 1 key card ( excluding the ♠A ) = the ♣ACE !

That would mean you are missing the ♥A and possibly the ♥Q and ♥J !!

which could mean 2 trump losers.... eventhough you have 10 trumps.

 

It would be nice to "ask" for the ♥Q, but no room available after the 5D reply.

You could ask if playing 4NT! = x 1430 and 5C = 1 key; thus, 5D = ♥Q-ask

 

But, alas, you find the ♥Q missing as well :(

[jogs]

any love for a Soloway jump?

 

NickToll already suggested 2♠. I think that's the best response. Second choice is 1♠. Don't like 2NT or 4♦. Splinters should be mostly 4441 hands or hands which have no better response. 5431 hands with a poor five card suit.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

It doesn't matter which method you use on this deal.

 

As I pointed out in my post # 33, when you find out you are missing ONE KEY card, it could be the ♥Ace. And if your method permits, you will also find out you are missing the ♥Q.

And eventhough you have 10 trumps, you will lose at least 2 trumps if you are missing the A, Q and J.

[JLOGIC]

I think 2N is a great start. If partner shows short clubs obviously that's gold...partner having short clubs is way more important than us having short diamonds despite us being the short trump because we have a source of tricks. If partner doesn't show short clubs, hopefully we can have a cuebidding auction. That should be fine imo. Yes, I am basically gambling on the spades, we might get to 6H needing a spade hook or something...whatever. Treating this hand like AKQTx ATxx x J9x which I assume everyone would bid 2N with just seems practical, sure we'd love to focus on the spade Q but ken pointed out the problem with 1S, we won't have time to set hearts, show our 4th heart, and still have some delicate auction...let alone find out about a stiff club.

 

Splintering is absurd, our hand is so powerful. To even compare it to something like Axxxx ATxx x KJx seems crazy to me. They are just much different hands, and should be treated as such. Showing short diamonds and a game force and giving partner no room and expecting that to be the best way to solve all the issues on the hand and find the right spot the highest percentage of the time is just lol.

 

Note: I am purposely not comparing any of this to a 2C relay, I don't really know how it would work out since I don't play it (presumably I will be able to find out about shape at a lower level and start cuebidding sooner, at the loss of showing my 4th heart ever.)

[JLOGIC]

And yeah, a strong jump shift followed by bidding diamonds to show short diamonds, long hearts, and spades is just the complete nuts. Partner will evaluate heavily for the SQ, good trumps, and know what he needs to know about the minors. Ship that, if only I played strong jump shifts!

[Yu18772]

In our system direct splinter is 12-16 and 4 card support, so thats what I bid. I dont worry at all about the club control, as partner will hold at most 8 hcp in the major suits, so if he decides to go for slam opposite x♦, he is bound to have useful ♣.

The problem with Jacoby for me is that you dont really want to know if partner has single spade, you want to see if his points are KQJ♦, Axxx♦ or anywhere else, and if you bid 2NT KQJx♦ will look to him as potential gold....until the dummy goes down :)

[Zelandakh]

I think you meant 5D = 1 or 4 ...

( I assume 4NT! = xRKCB is Meckwell's Voidwood for Hts with a Sp void ...)

Both correct.

 

Regardless, what if that 1 key card ( excluding the ♠A ) = the ♣ACE !

That would mean you are missing the ♥A and possibly the ♥Q and ♥J !!

which could mean 2 trump losers.... eventhough you have 10 trumps.

Partner has shown ~13-16hcp and at least 4 of the remaining 7 hearts. How likely do you think it is that the opps have ♥AQJ? I agree this is possible, I disagree that it should stop us bidding slam here. Heck, even if partner does have the nightmare hand we can still pick up any 2-1 break with the ace onside. We've all been in worse...

 

I do not feel I will be better off after 2NT, at least in the structure that I use. After 1H - 2NT, Opener is borderline between 3D (extras with shortage) and 3NT (super-max with spade shortage). Now whether North shows spade shortage or South shows good spades, it is not really encouraging to the other. On this hand the general strength is such that I think slam is going to be reached whichever path is taken. Nonetheless I think it is easier after an in-between splinter, albeit noting that JL is ranged against me on this. :( FWiiW I agree that a simple splinter is a terrible bid. Hopefully Justin was only arguing against this and not the stronger version. :ph34r:

[Lurpoa]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakjt8hat52d6cj92&w=shdc&n=shdc&e=shdc]399|300[/hv]

:blink:

 

Just curious if we get close to a consensus here...

 

♥

Hello Dear♥,

more than a question of system, it is a question of partnership.

Please agree with partner on the limit of each possible bid,

♥

 

[TWO4BRIDGE]

any love for a Soloway jump?

A sometimes poster here, Bill Higgins, has looked in depth at the possible uses for the 1H - 2S! sequence .

He says ( Aug, 2006 ):

" The systemic problem with the auction 1H (p) 1S when responder has game forcing values, heart support and a good spade suit continue to bug me.

The issue:

1S is the only new suit response to a major opening that does not create a game force (in 2/1). If responder to a 1H opening has game forcing values, heart support and a spade suit which constitutes the main feature of the hand, the auction can become a real mess. This happens because of the steps required to establish a game force.

 

I looked at Kaplan inversion, but that really deals with a different issue .

 

Using 2S as a Soloway Jump Shift does at least directly deal with the issue, but I have not been all that happy with the treatment (all the documentation I find uses more strength than just game forcing, and the other options are somewhat rare and not themselves real problems in search of a solution).

 

Now, I am thinking more along the lines of 2S as an unlimited (at least invitational) fit jump raise.

 

Preliminary thinking re continuations:

1H - 2S ( fit-jump )

2N!(Relay) - ??

3C/D Shortness (any strength)

3H limit only, no short minor

3S+ game force, cue bids

 

 

Any thoughts? "

[ArtK78]

A sometimes poster here, Bill Higgins, has looked in depth at the possible uses for the 1H - 2S! sequence .

He says ( aug, 2006 ):

" The systemic problem with the auction 1H (p) 1S when responder has game forcing values, heart support and a good spade suit continue to bug me.

The issue:

1S is the only new suit response to a major opening that does not create a game force (in 2/1). If responder to a 1H opening has game forcing values, heart support and a spade suit which constitutes the main feature of the hand, the auction can become a real mess. This happens because of the steps required to establish a game force.

 

I looked at Kaplan inversion, but that really deals with a different issue .

 

Using 2S as a Soloway Jump Shift does at least directly deal with the issue, but I have not been all that happy with the treatment (all the documentation I find uses more strength than just game forcing, and the other options are somewhat rare and not themselves real problems in search of a solution).

 

Now, I am thinking more along the lines of 2S as an unlimited (at least invitational) fit jump raise.

 

Preliminary thinking re continuations:

1H - 2S ( fit-jump )

2N!(Relay) - ??

3C/D Shortness (any strength)

3H limit only, no short minor

3S+ game force, cue bids

 

 

Any thoughts? "

I use the 2♠ response to a 1♥ opening as an artificial heart raise, consisting of:

 

1) A mini-splinter (opener relays to 2NT, responder rebids at the 3 level in his shortness - 3♥=spade shortness).

2) A maxi-splinter (opener relays to 2NT, responder rebids his shortness starting with 3♠).

3) A strong NT hand with a fit (opener relays to 2NT, responder bids 3NT with 3 hearts and 4♥ with 4 or 5 hearts).

 

A direct splinter (1♥-3♠ or 1♥-4m) is a minimum game forcing splinter.

A 2NT response to 1♥ is Jacoby.

Responses of 2♥, 3♣, 3♦ and 3♥ are Bergen.

 

Missing from this picture is any sort of fit showing jump. It is my experience that hands appropriate for fit showing jumps are not a problem in an uncontested auction. Admittedly, as you say, 1♥-1♠ is the only awkward sequence, in that it does not create an immediate game force. But that is usually correctable later in the auction.

 

(I am considering changing the meaning of the direct splinter to show a void and the relay big splinter to show a singleton, with neither sequence showing more than a game force).

[jogs]

any love for a Soloway jump?

 

1♥ - 2♠

 

Opener knows responder has 4 hearts and at most 4 minor suit cards. Opener only needs the ♥K and ♣A for 7♥ to be odds on.

 

1♥ - 2NT

 

Opener only knows about the 4-card heart support. He may think he needs the ♣J to solidify his club suit.

[jdeegan]

:rolleyes: 2♠

A strong jump shift should show any hand that might produce a laydown slam opposite the right minimum. This hand easily qualifies.

[Zelandakh]

I use the 2♠ response to a 1♥ opening as an artificial heart raise, consisting of:

 

1) A mini-splinter (opener relays to 2NT, responder rebids at the 3 level in his shortness - 3♥=spade shortness).

2) A maxi-splinter (opener relays to 2NT, responder rebids his shortness starting with 3♠).

3) A strong NT hand with a fit (opener relays to 2NT, responder bids 3NT with 3 hearts and 4♥ with 4 or 5 hearts).

 

A direct splinter (1♥-3♠ or 1♥-4m) is a minimum game forcing splinter.

A 2NT response to 1♥ is Jacoby.

Responses of 2♥, 3♣, 3♦ and 3♥ are Bergen.

 

Missing from this picture is any sort of fit showing jump. It is my experience that hands appropriate for fit showing jumps are not a problem in an uncontested auction. Admittedly, as you say, 1♥-1♠ is the only awkward sequence, in that it does not create an immediate game force. But that is usually correctable later in the auction.

 

(I am considering changing the meaning of the direct splinter to show a void and the relay big splinter to show a singleton, with neither sequence showing more than a game force).

As I have previously posted I play something not dissimilar but not including hand type 3. To be honest I am not sure that it is a great idea to include it since this hand type can happily go via 2NT and the 4H rebid after the relay is (imho) a poor use of space. Note that you can also separate out voids from singletons in the stronger hands if you want. After 2NT, I use 3S as any void and 3NT as a spade singleton. The same trick also works for immediate responses to 1H with weaker hands. I (strongly) believe this is a better treatment than the one you are considering where you have a void splinter and a singleton splinter but no "in-between" splinter.

 

The fit jumps can sometimes be recovered if you allow Responder to break relays with this hand type, for example 1H - 2NT; 3C! - 3S with a good spade suit (whatever 3C means!). There is no problem with this since if you want a cue auction you could just continue with 3H. I wrote about this in a similar thread a while back where the alternatives of showing the side suit and afterwards support versus showing support and afterwards the side suit were discussed. There are certainly some strong opinions on both sides of this but I think if you are going to the trouble of using a raise scheme like you have then the "support first" approach is more harmonious. Delayed support can always be less than 4 which is useful information for partner. Note that I have also tried methods with fit jumps instead of the in-between splinters and, like you, do not think they are as good overall in uncontested auctions.

 

Finally, I do not have your issue after 1H - 1S since I play this as a relay. The fact that all invitational-plus hands have to start with 1S in my system makes it even more important than usual to get the support in immediately. The weakness-showing 1NT (spades) and 2m responses tend to be mild winners over standard; the downside is that there are fewer purely invitational sequences, somewhat mitigated by them not being required if Opener has extras (can stay in relays). This last paragraph is probably straying away from the point so I will close up and summarise with my main recommendation - drop the strong NT raise from 2S and instead put your void splinter here (for stronger hands) and in 1H - 3S (for minimum GF hands).

[jdeegan]

:angry: Splinter baaaaaaaa....d bid. JTB is OK. 2♠ strong is the best. The ♠ queen and minor suit aces are huge. You are a favorite to make six opposite any number of minimum openers. Even:

Qx

KJxxxx

Jxx

A10x

Get partner focused on what you know you need: ♣ ace or Kx, ♦ ace, ♥ tops and the ever-popular ♠ Q.