How to bid grand in competition?

[1axbycz1]

[hv=pc=n&s=sa63ht752da4c8632&n=sk2hakq964dkjt63c&d=n&v=0&b=1&a=1h2c2h3c]266|200[/hv]

 

What do I bid here?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

your first goal should be, to bid the small slam, reaching the grand

in a controlled way comes 2nd.

 

Opener basically needs dream cards from responder, finding two Aces in

a hand only worth a single raise qualifies.

 

North should bid 4C, which is a slam try, and showes club shortage,

South sees his dream cards and will cooperate.

If South has the Chance to bid 4D, and you have the agreement, that

the first cue showes a top honor, North wont stop below 6H.

Even if they raise the ante by bidding 5C over 4C from North, South

should bid 5D - a cue on the 5 level showes first round control.

 

After the 4D / 5D bid from South - North can bid on, but this basically

is playing South for the Ace of spades (in addition to the already shown Ace),

which would not be my style, I would short cut the auction.

 

If you want to reach the gran slam, than I would suggest, first to discuss

how to show supporting hands, that are super max for a single raise - the

Soouth qualifies, and to introduce "in beween" raises, this will be helpful

in your game bidding, and that is the place, where the money is.

 

If South showes an "in between" raise", than North will be more inclined to

go looking for the gold at the end of the rainbow.

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Cascade]

5♣ Exclusion Key Card

[1axbycz1]

This is what I understand about competitive auctions with both sides holding a fit.

 

1. The single raise has the same meaning as it would without the overcall. 6-9 points.

2. There are 3 main types for the opener to show: competitive, invitational, and game-going. Holding a slam like this is rare.

3. Opener's main aim is to find out how much of responder's values is wasted in clubs. Give responder xxx xxx xxx AKxx and while a single raise is still suitable, game might not even make if the opps lead trump and trump splits 3-1 or 4-0.

 

And now, what does the following show?

a. Dbl, penalty?

b. Pass, not willing to compete further?

c. new suit. shows a second suit? cuebid?

d. 3♥ is competitive/invitational for me. is that practical?

e. 4♥ is obviously a sign-off. may be pre-emptive.

f. What is 3nt? to play?

 

Is 4♣ a cuebid, or does it ask for a cuebid? What does this mean exactly? Shortness?

 

If north bids 4♣ and east comes with 5♣, south would probably X for penalty. now as north, do you sit for 5♣x or pull to 5♥ (which partner will probably pass).

 

"5♣ exclusion keycard." Then E will pass, now what to do if S shows 1 pointed ace? Do you bid 6♥? As mentioned above, what if responder has xxx xxx xxx AKxx?

 

And let's say you manage to bid the grand. After a ♣ opening lead, you ruff trick 1, and play the ♥A on trick 2, revealing a 3-0 trump break, 3 with east. How to play ♦ for no losers? Who to play for the queen?

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 yes

#2 yes

#3 only if opener has a hand that is inv., if he has game going values,

he should not care.

Even with the example hand, you want to be in game, sometimes trumps

dont split the worst possible way.

 

#a matter of agreement, it is commoen to play X as inviting to game, 3B

being reserved for competitive

#b no, pass showes a min opener, no interest in competing

#c trial bid, it is common to show values - since this is B/I, I dont want

to be go in more detail

#d competitive, not invitational

#e to play, may just be a "game try" - bid game, try to make it, you have the

majority and the major, why preempt

#f matter of agreement, to play will be the most common agreement

 

#Q1 4C is a cue, a cue in form of shortness

#Q2 If 5C comes to South, South should not X, he has xxxx in trumps, his trump

length (without any ruffing values) is useless, the length gurantees 2nd

round control of clubs - even xxx would gurantee this, they have 9 trumps,

you have 3, how many has opener?

If South doubles, North should not sit, he has 6-5-2-0, he wants to play hearts

#Q3 South will show an Ace not being the Ace of clubs => 6H, if South has AKxx in

clubs, he will show 0 Aces

#Q4 abstain - no comment to play from my side, the last comment I made is not so long

away

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[1axbycz1]

"#Q2 If 5C comes to South, South should not X, he has xxxx in trumps, his trump

length (without any ruffing values) is useless, the length gurantees 2nd

round control of clubs - even xxx would gurantee this, they have 9 trumps,

you have 3, how many has opener?"

South can lead trump whenever he is on lead to reduce their ruffing value; holding the pointed aces doesnt make it too hard to gain the lead. I dont really see the problem of the penalty X over 5♣.

"#Q3 South will show an Ace not being the Ace of clubs => 6H, if South has AKxx in

clubs, he will show 0 Aces". What I was trying to mean here is that 5♥ probably fails. No dummy entries if they lead trump.

If S has Axx xxx xxx Qxxx does the small slam make? I see 2 ♦ losers.

 

#d competitive, not invitational.

Then what can I use as invitational?

#f matter of agreement, to play will be the most common agreement

why play 3nt when holding the major?

 

What do you exactly mean by in between raises?

[P_Marlowe]

Aces are good cards both for ofense as for defence, because of this South should

not double, and certainly you can draw trumps, but if they have a side suit fit,

that helps them as well.

 

#Q3 Sometimes you go down, happens - ... and I was advocating 4C, which does not commit

our side to slam, but 5C is certainly a reasonable bid.

I used to raise opener agressivly (*), if holding support, so as opener, I would need

some encouragement to move beyond 4H, in the end this is a style / partnership agreement

thing.

 

#d see my comments to #a, you double or make a trial bid, if you have trial bids and double

as an option, double is usually showing mild interest to go for blood, but it is not a

pure penalty double.

 

#f as I said, that is a style / partnership agreement thing, I belong fairly firmly

to the school, if we have a major suit fit, we play the major.

=> You can use 3NT as a slam trial, but there are lots of players, who play 3NT

as choice of games, and they have lots of credentials, some are world champions, which

I am not at the moment and I never will be one.

 

Regarding "in-between raises" - search the A/E for "mixed raises".

In the end, if you lower the requirement for a single raise, which we do, see (*), the

range of hands, which make the single raise gets bigger, "mixed raised" or "in between

raises" show raises, on the upper end of a single raise, and on the lower en of an inv.+

raise.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: I am usually reluctant to advocate certain things, say 3NT nat. or slam try, since this

is something to discuss with your partner.

If you care a lot about rightsiding, than you will also have a lot choice of games auctions,

if you dont care a lot, you wont.

[Zelandakh]

You have several options here. Starting with the highest you could jump to 5C which many play to mean a special form of RKCB with a club void. That is fine and all but probably not wise opposite a random B/I without agreement. Another option would be 4D which will usually be interpreted as a big red 2-suiter with slam ambition. The third option is 4C which shows 0-1 clubs and slam ambition fairly unambiguously. The final option is to start with a normal 3D game try planning to bid 4C to show shortage and slam ambition if partner tries to sign off. The big downside of this last approach is that you may get preempted out of showing your hand type properly. There is not really a 'right' answer to this imho and it is to some extent a matter of style between the available options. Regardless of which slam try North makes it is clear that this South should cooperate. The detective has given good answers to your supplemental questions so I will not bother with those. Your aim is to find out about wasted values opposire your shortage AND about partner's values opposite your diamond suit which is a valuable source of tricks potentially. That is why 4D (probably followed by 5C) is also a good option here.

[1axbycz1]

What exactly is 3♦ here? Second suit?

[Echognome]

4-card support and 2 aces is always a Limit Raise for me.

[Zelandakh]

What exactly is 3♦ here? Second suit?

3D is initially a game try. There are different style for this but arguably the most common is to bid the suit where you need the most help. In this specific auction after 3C, 3D is simply a general game try as it is the only suit we have available below 3H. However, when making a game try like 3D and then following up with a slam try (4C) the game try morphs into a good suit with trick-taking potential. This is not the only approach though so you need to make agreements with partner.

[1axbycz1]

3D is initially a game try. There are different style for this but arguably the most common is to bid the suit where you need the most help. In this specific auction after 3C, 3D is simply a general game try as it is the only suit we have available below 3H. However, when making a game try like 3D and then following up with a slam try (4C) the game try morphs into a good suit with trick-taking potential. This is not the only approach though so you need to make agreements with partner.

 

So this shows an invitational hand, while 3♥ is simply competitive?

[Zelandakh]

Yes, as per P Marlowe's answers to your questions c and d.

[1axbycz1]

Wait, so 3♦ is an artifical bid and says nothing about the suit? And what if S accepts the invitation and replies in 4♥? What do you bid?

 

"4-card support and 2 aces is always a Limit Raise for me." I want to clarify what you mean here. Do you make a limit raise here in competition or do you still make the limit raise when RHO passes?

[Echognome]

What I mean is that for valuation if I have 4-card support for partner and I have two Aces, then I consider my hand to be a "Limit raise" despite not having 10-points. Of course you can give me an exception by making my hand 4=3=3=3 shape, but I'm speaking in general terms. The point I'm making is that I don't think that the simple raise of partner's suit was the right call with or without competition.

[Zelandakh]

Wait, so 3♦ is an artifical bid and says nothing about the suit? And what if S accepts the invitation and replies in 4♥? What do you bid?

 

"4-card support and 2 aces is always a Limit Raise for me." I want to clarify what you mean here. Do you make a limit raise here in competition or do you still make the limit raise when RHO passes?

After 4H you continue with either 4S (cue) or 5C (shortage) depending on agreements. Partner has shown enough for you to commit beyond game. Note that on this particular hand I do not think the 3D then 4/5C approach is the best one due to the worry of preemption. But it is an option and always a sequence worth considering with a slam hand if you think it will more easily extract the information you need.

 

What the little guy is saying is that aces are undervalued in the Milton Work Count and that 2 aces and a doubleton need to be upgraded to a limit raise. It is irrelevant what RHO bids in that evaluation. A decent rule of thumb is to add 1/2 point for an ace and subtract 1/2 point for any unsupported queens. You should also seriously downgrade combinations like Qx, Jx or a stiff J, Q or K unless the bidding suggests they will be pulling full weight. These evaluation adjustments become especially important in suit contracts. You will probably learn much of this through experience if you pay close attention to missed/hopeless games while developing your judgement. There are also plenty of articles and books around which can give you pointers.

[1axbycz1]

Yes, I have learnt about those hand evaluation methods. I also learnt about trial bids (both long and short) to determine which are the relavant honors and which are not. KJxx opposite a void is hardly worth anything, and is sometimes no better than xxxx.

[han]

I always agree with echognome, speaking in general terms.

[vuroth]

With no exclusion, I'd probably try 3♦. Probably my next bid is ♠s over whatever partner's ♥ bid is.

 

Partner and I are headed for confusionland, but if one of us can figure out the other's club situation, 6♥ will be bid sooner or later.