Transfers over 2N rebid

[jillybean]

(posted in A/E so that MikeH can explain the pro's & con's of transfers over 2N)

 

1♦:1♥

2N: ?

 

How do you find your 5-3 ♥ or 4-4 ♠ fit now?

[Fluffy]

I'm a simple soul that plays checkback

 

3♣ relay with 4 answers:

 

-3♦ = 4♠ and 3/4♥

-3♥ = 2/3♠ + 3/4♥

-3♠ = 4♠ + 2♥

-3NT = 2/3♠ + 2♥

 

appart from 3♣, 3♦ and 3♥ are natural and set our fit, 3♠ shows clubs. but bidding 1♠ then 3♥ would show a 5-5 hand.

 

This is all fine when you play sound responses and don't need to play contracts at the 3 level.

 

On a side note, when I overload 2NT rebid with 1 suiters, 3♣->3♦ is a strong 1 suiter in the suit opened

[mgoetze]

(posted in A/E so that MikeH can explain the pro's & con's of transfers over 2N)

 

1♦:1♥

2N: ?

 

How do you find your 5-3 ♥ or 4-4 ♠ fit now?

 

1♦-1♥

2NT-3♦*

3♥**-3♠***

3nt****

 

* Hey, I have a 5th heart!

** Uhhuh.

*** I also have 4 spades!

**** Well, too bad, I'm 3244.

 

1♦-1♥

2NT-3♥*

3♠**-3NT***

4♠****

 

* I have 4 spades!

** Uhhuh.

*** Let's play a game!

**** OK.

 

Etc.

[straube]

mgoetze is right. This is further along those lines and there is actually a lot more than can be packed in here (if for example 3N is made forcing and if 3S is a puppet or has multiple meanings)

 

1D-1H, 2N

 

3C-forces 3D

.....3D-forced

..........3H-6 hearts, slam try

..........3S-diamond fit, slam try

..........3N-COG with 5 hearts

3D-transfer

.....3H-forced

..........3S-4 spades

..........3N-demands correction to 4H with fit

3H-transfer with 4S/4H only

3S-club slam try

3N-to play

[rogerclee]

I like the method where 3C is the catchall weak hand or minor slam try (Wolff style, forces 3D) and bids of 3D or higher are then logically game forcing transfers. The slam auctions are easier because on an auction like

 

1D - 1H

2N - 3D

3H

 

we have agreed to play in hearts, and opener can bid 3N to deny heart support (or 3S to show 4 spades).

[Jboling]

I play these tranfers slightly different:

1. Transfer to a already bid suit is forced, because it might be sign-off. Super-accepting is ok, you then bid something else but completion of the transfer.

2. Transfer to a new suit asks for a four card fit, and is only completed with one, other bids are natural and denies a fit in the transfer suit. This makes it almost impossible to stop at the three-level in a new suit, but makes it easier to agree the trump suit, in case responder is interested in slam.

[han]

1♦-1♥

2NT-3♦*

3♥**-3♠***

3nt****

 

* Hey, I have a 5th heart!

** Uhhuh.

*** I also have 4 spades!

**** Well, too bad, I'm 3244.

 

1♦-1♥

2NT-3♥*

3♠**-3NT***

4♠****

 

* I have 4 spades!

** Uhhuh.

*** Let's play a game!

**** OK.

 

Etc.

 

In the second auction 3S shows 4 spades. In the first auction 3H is more or less forced and responder might pass it.

[han]

Also, after 1C - 1H - 2NT - 3C (showing diamonds), opener will often bid 3H with 3 hearts, and can bid 3D with only 3. Responder can be weak with 5-5 in the reds.

 

By the way, I play that 3C is either a transfer to diamonds or a single suited slam try (with a 5+ major). Opener will often bid 3D and then 3M shows the single suited slam try. An auction like

 

1C - 1H

2NT - 3D

3H - 4C

 

is then natural and really shows 5+ hearts and 4+ clubs.

 

I learned this modifaction from Wortel, a Dutch bridge player.

[OleBerg]

1♦ - 1♥

2nt -

3♥ = I have five hearts, might have four spades.

3♠ = I have four spades, but only four hearts.

[gwnn]

Depends what you like to respond with 6 diamonds and 4 in a major, some people seem to like bidding 1M with weak hands. Then it probably makes sense to have 3♣ force 3♦.

[pooltuna]

(posted in A/E so that MikeH can explain the pro's & con's of transfers over 2N)

 

1♦:1♥

2N: ?

 

How do you find your 5-3 ♥ or 4-4 ♠ fit now?

 

3♣ shows 5♥

3♦ shows invitational+ ♦support

3♥ shows invitational 6 card suit

3♠ shows 4♥ and 4♠

if you have 5♥ and 4♠ you call 3♣ and with 4♠ partner is supposed to bid 3♠

[mikeh]

As the posts show, many players have methods over 2N rebids. Posting versions of wolff is not exactly responding to the OP, so here goes...my scheme is similar to a few of the ones posted so far.

 

All 3 level suit bids over 2N are transfers, but not all of them are mandatory.

 

Mandatory:

 

1) a transfer back to the suit responder bid. Opener must accept...responder may be about to pass

2) a transfer to 3♦. This is true whether or not anyone has so far bid the suit. Note that this is only so for walsh players, where 1♣ 1M may be on a weak 4=6, with long diamonds, and now responder intends to pass 3♦. If you don't play this style, then 3♣, showing diamonds, becomes an optional transfer....opener 'accepts' only when he prefers diamonds to responder's major.

 

Optional:

 

A transfer into a new major is optional: opener accepts only with 4 card support.

 

A bid of 3♠ is a club transfer but opener will often (usually?) bid 3N instead. We play 3♠ as mild interest in a club slam, or better...with better, responder pulls 3N should opener bid that.

 

Examples:

 

1♣ 1♠

2N 3♥: mandatory transfer...promises 5+ spades.

 

1♣ 1♠

2N 3♦: optional transfer...responder promises 5+ spades and 4+ hearts (note that if you play meckwell 2♥ over 1♣, you have inferences about strength here)

 

Opener bids 3♥ with 4 hearts, 3♠ with 3 spades and fewer than 4 hearts, 3N with 2=3 or 2=2 in the majors. I suggest that any bid by opener beyond 3N be a cuebid, with a super acceptance in hearts (I actually suggest bidding the higher of touching Aces, so that, for instance, 4♥ would deliver the club, diamond and heart Aces)

 

With 4=4 in the majors, responder rebids 3♥, optional transfer to spades.

 

With 4 spades and longer hearts, transfer to 3♥ and then bid 3♠.

 

With a 5 card major and wanting to give a choice of 3N or 4M, transfer to the major and bid 3N (or 4N quantitative with slam interest or 5N choice of slams with slam-postive values and no grand slam interest)

 

With a mild slam try and 6+ major, transfer to the major and then bid game...if you merely want to play 4major..bid it over 2N....going slow shows slam interest....the same principle as applies when one uses Jacoby transfers and jumps to 4major (so long as one has texas as well).

 

No scheme is perfect and this one isn't an exception to that general rule, but I have played several methods over 2N rebids and this has been, in my experience, the best.

 

There are further topics such as retransfers at the 4-level in some auctions, but they aren't necessary to the method, rarely arise, are prone to memory issues, and can be worked out, with a little effort, by anyone who has got this far.

[awm]

One possible modification to Mikeh's approach is to play: 1m-1♠-2N-3♦ as forcing opener to choose a major. The sequence shows 5+♠ and 4+♥, and opener is expected to bid 3♥ with four-card hearts or bid 3♠ with two or three spades without four hearts. This allows responder to reach the best fit with a weak 5-4, rather than being forced to transfer to spades regardless, and doesn't seem to have much downside (GF hands can bid 3NT next and opener corrects to spades with three; slammish hands can pattern out at the four level).

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I'd like to see anyone of these methods get to slam with the following hand.

One thing that must happen is that Opener needs to find out about Responder's SIX cards in ♥.

Just showing 3 cards won't cut it.

And Responder does NOT have a 2nd 4 card suit.

Most of these systems seem to have bids for a 2nd suit.

 

It was posted here ( in A & E ) back in Sept 9, 2009 by dicklont [http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/34053-slam-try-after-2nt-rebid/page__p__393388__hl__%2Bslam+%2Btry+%2Bafter+%2B2nt+%2Brebid__fromsearch__1#entry393388 ] .

 

The title was: Slam try after 2NT rebid .

 

NO ONE posted a complete auction to 6H.... using their system.

 

skaeran said :

Transfers after a jump to 2NT is very easy to use, and is also efficient.

But he did not elaborate.... even when asked.

 

[hv=pc=n&w=sa432haqdat94ckqt&e=skqjhkj7542d5cj98]266|100[/hv]

1D - 1H

2NT - ?? continue ( and explain )

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

Now gnasher said a 4D!-jump ( after 2NT ) is a self-splinter for Hts ( showing 6+hts )! !

I liked it, but is it really ?

I do know that 4D! is a self-splinter in the following auction ( after a 1NT rebid ):

1D - 1H

1NT- 4D! ( because if it were a real Diam support bid, Responder would go through NMF first ! )

[mgoetze]

NO ONE posted a complete auction to 6H.... using their system.

 

Oh you want to know about my system? :-P

 

1♣-1♦ (Clubs or 11-13 balanced or 17-19 balanced; Transfer to hearts)

1NT-2♣ (17-19 balanced; GF relay)

2♥-2♠ (4432 type with 2 hearts; relay)

3♣-3♥ (4243; sets hearts, slam interest)

3♠-3NT (cue; serious)

4♣-4♠ (cue; RKCB)

5♣-5♦ (0/3; scan)

5NT-6♥ (♥Q, ♣K, no ♦K; signoff)

 

However, it's rather off-topic here.

[mikeh]

I'd like to see anyone of these methods get to slam with the following hand.

One thing that must happen is that Opener needs to find out about Responder's SIX cards in ♥.

Just showing 3 cards won't cut it.

And Responder does NOT have a 2nd 4 card suit.

Most of these systems seem to have bids for a 2nd suit.

 

It was posted here ( in A & E ) back in Sept 9, 2009 by dicklont [http://www.bridgebase.com/forums/topic/34053-slam-try-after-2nt-rebid/page__p__393388__hl__%2Bslam+%2Btry+%2Bafter+%2B2nt+%2Brebid__fromsearch__1#entry393388 ] .

 

The title was: Slam try after 2NT rebid .

 

NO ONE posted a complete auction to 6H.... using their system.

 

skaeran said :

 

But he did not elaborate.... even when asked.

 

[hv=pc=n&w=sa432haqdat94ckqt&e=skqjhkj7542d5cj98]266|100[/hv]

1D - 1H

2NT - ?? continue ( and explain )

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

Now gnasher said a 4D!-jump ( after 2NT ) is a self-splinter for Hts ( showing 6+hts )! !

I liked it, but is it really ?

I do know that 4D! is a self-splinter in the following auction ( after a 1NT rebid ):

1D - 1H

1NT- 4D! ( because if it were a real Diam support bid, Responder would go through NMF first ! )

 

 

Any hand on which every card is working will be difficult to bid without comples relay methods, but the method I posted has a chance if, but only if, responder views his hand as worth a mild slam try. In which case, it is trivial: responder transfers to 3♥, which is mandatory, and then raises to 4♥, showing a 6+ suit and mild slam interest, over which opener has a trival decision to force to slam.

 

Alternatively, there is much to be said for opener upgrading to 2N, with all those controls

[mikeh]

One possible modification to Mikeh's approach is to play: 1m-1♠-2N-3♦ as forcing opener to choose a major. The sequence shows 5+♠ and 4+♥, and opener is expected to bid 3♥ with four-card hearts or bid 3♠ with two or three spades without four hearts. This allows responder to reach the best fit with a weak 5-4, rather than being forced to transfer to spades regardless, and doesn't seem to have much downside (GF hands can bid 3NT next and opener corrects to spades with three; slammish hands can pattern out at the four level).

you don't need this (in fact, it would be a waste) if you play a jump to 2♥ in response to 1minor as meckwell, as I do

[gnasher]

There are further topics ...

One is the distinction between

1♣-1♠

2NT-3♣

3♦-3♠

 

1♣-1♠

2NT-3♣

3♦-3NT

 

1♣-1♠

2NT-3♥

3♠-4♦

[mikeh]

One is the distinction between

1♣-1♠

2NT-3♣

3♦-3♠

 

1♣-1♠

2NT-3♣

3♦-3NT

 

1♣-1♠

2NT-3♥

3♠-4♦

1. 5-5 or better in spades and diamonds, forcing

 

2.depends on style. If playing 'strong walsh' in which one bypasses long diamonds to bid spades unless one has an opening hand, then this can be 4=5/6 with a near-opener. Otherwise it is 5-5 with doubt about 3N.

 

3. spades are trump, 4♦ is a cuebid

 

this is based on a style wherein one opens 1♦ with 4-4 minors. If you open 1♣, then the transfer to diamonds could, I suppose, be more frequently on a 4 card suit...but I don't play that style so am merely speculating.

[broze]

I suggest that any bid by opener beyond 3N be a cuebid, with a super acceptance in hearts (I actually suggest bidding the higher of touching Aces, so that, for instance, 4♥ would deliver the club, diamond and heart Aces)

 

Sorry to go off topic (happy to be redirected to the appropriate one) but what is this cue-bidding style and when should it apply? You've piqued my interest.

[han]

1♣ 1♠

2N 3♦: optional transfer...responder promises 5+ spades and 4+ hearts (note that if you play meckwell 2♥ over 1♣, you have inferences about strength here)

 

Opener bids 3♥ with 4 hearts, 3♠ with 3 spades and fewer than 4 hearts, 3N with 2=3 or 2=2 in the majors.

 

There is an obvious flaw in this method, namely that responder won't know whether to correct 3NT to 4H with 5-5 in the majors. That's why I prefer to play that opener always bids at the 4-level with 4-card heart support, and bids 3H only with 2-3 in the majors. That way 3NT guarantees 2-2 and responder doesn't have to guess.

 

Of course an advantage of your method compared to mine is that you find your fit at the 3-level and have more room to investigate slam.

 

I also think that the Wortel-adjunct I mentioned in this thread in 2011 is an improvement. I don't know why not more people have picked up on it.

[gwnn]

han, don't you transfer to 1M with 4M6D (in which case you'd rather play without Wortel2011)? Well, maybe 5M5D is more likely, so it's OK.

[JLOGIC]

I am currently playing some outer space methods including:

 

3C relay to 3D, either to play 3D/3M, or to make a slam try with the other minor, or for a choice of games with 5332.

 

3D always a slam try in partners minor

 

3H checkback, over which 3S always shows 3 hearts regardless of which major partner has shown (lol).

 

3S 6+ major slam try.

 

I have no idea why I play this but it seems alright. As with all NT hands it is very important to me to be able to play 3N with 5332 opp 4333 and a 5-3 major suit fit. I am happy with any methods that allow this to happen, especially if the fit is unknown to the opps.

[han]

han, don't you transfer to 1M with 4M6D (in which case you'd rather play without Wortel2011)?

 

You lose nothing on this shape? I will still bid 3C, which is either a single suited slam try in hearts (if I bid 3H next) or diamonds (if I pass or bid anything else next). Since you wouldn't have bid 3H over 3D with 4-6 anyway you won't lose anything.

 

The shape I lose most on is 5-4 in the reds. With this mikeh bids 3C followed by 3H and I can't.

[gwnn]

You lose nothing on this shape? I will still bid 3C, which is either a single suited slam try in hearts (if I bid 3H next) or diamonds (if I pass or bid anything else next). Since you wouldn't have bid 3H over 3D with 4-6 anyway you won't lose anything.

 

The shape I lose most on is 5-4 in the reds. With this mikeh bids 3C followed by 3H and I can't.

I don't get it, didn't you say opener bids 3H over 3C with 3 hearts? 3D is a better contract than 3H if you are weak with 4M6D. Maybe you changed the system, I was replying to the older post of yours.