Why did my partner leave in disgust?

[Bbradley62]

Should beginners generally play in the Relaxed Bridge Club, where partners might have better attitudes than in the Main Bridge Club?

[nige1]

Partner may have lost connection to BBO. If that is the case, he should apologise when he logs in again. Otherwise, I suggest that you classify him as an enemy (adding a comment to explain why) so that he can't waste your time again. All of us suffer from such renegades. One reason for the popularity of bridge is that debacles are always partner's fault :)

 

The meaning of partner's double is a far less important issue. To me it is logical that it is penalty, Partner failed to take any action immediately after the 1♣ opening, so is it likely that he wants me to start bidding at the three-level? Especially as opponents may have a misfit. Hence, with partners, whom I've indoctrinated, I play it as penalty.

 

But many play almost all low-level doubles as take-out. And there is a big memory advantage in having simple blanket rules.

[Antraxxx]

I always play in the relaxed club. Not that it spares me my fair share of bad partners (my best bad beat story so far has to do with an impatient partner conceding a slam with me holding the trump A for the setting trick - and the declarer accepting for whatever reason), but I hope it means people are less mad at me when I make mistakes.

In any case, one thing that seems to be in the consensus is that you don't start competing when the opponents have worked their way up to the 3 level (not by preemption, that is). So I should've doubled back on the 1 level and partner's double is more likely to be for penalties because if he was short in clubs he would've doubled immediately. What I'm missing here is why not consider that partner would also need points, either to penalize or to TO after 1♣ at first. 3♣ rebid by opener means he has at least 15, I'm looking at 11. That leaves 14 points. E doubles after 3♣ and S passes, suggesting his hand is weak - he doesn't have great clubs as he removed to diamonds before, he doesn't have 10 points or something near that or he'd have gone to 3NT, so odds are he has something like 2-3 clubs, 3-5 diamonds and something like 3-3 in the majors (I'm assuming he'd have said 1M with a four-card major). So partner has at most four clubs and probably around 7 points, which is not something he wants to penalize with, does he?

Could I have drawn the right conclusions from the bidding somehow? Where is the mistake in my thinking?

[hotShot]

If your partner makes a TO dbl at the 3-level should he be stronger or weaker than making a TO dbl at the 1 level?

 

Since you need 2 extra tricks for a contract at the 3-level, is seems logical that he is stronger.

This logic makes it hard to imagine a hand that is to weak to act over the 1 level bid, but is strong enough to ask for a TO at the 3 level.

 

You have passed twice and opps have shown their strength, this should allow your partner to estimate your potential strength quite accurate, since he has data from 3 hands. If your partner expected you to understand his dbl as penalty, than he can expect you to accept his decision and pass. That would allow him to include his estimate of your strength into your sides final bid.

[Bbradley62]

Could I have drawn the right conclusions from the bidding somehow? Where is the mistake in my thinking?

You've concluded that partner has a random 7HCP and wants to make your side play at the 3-level, even though he "knows" that you don't have 10+ with 4+4+ in the majors, because that hand would have done something over 1♦. That should tell you that something is wrong. Basically, you're believing your opponents' bids and deciding that your partner is off his rocker.

 

Being at a table with 3 strangers makes it hard to count things so clearly as you have tried to do here. I wouldn't encourage it, but there are some Souths who might bid 1♦ with a 4450 yarb, figuring they'll pass whatever North bids next. (The actual South hand was along these lines though not so extreme.) That would leave partner with more points and more clubs than you've given him credit for. He thinks he's getting 5 tricks on defense, and expects you to take 1 with your (expected) 7-9HCP, so he wants to collect a big penalty.

[luke warm]

it's obviously been too long since i've played (or even thought about bidding), but i'd have x'd the 1♦ bid and it would never have entered my mind that p's x of 3♣ was for t/o (since he didn't x 1♣)

[Antraxxx]

it's obviously been too long since i've played (or even thought about bidding), but i'd have x'd the 1♦ bid and it would never have entered my mind that p's x of 3♣ was for t/o (since he didn't x 1♣)

Should he double 1♣ for TO with 7 HCP? Shouldn't he try to find a part-score game when from the bidding it's obvious we have a good fit in at least one major and points split around the lines of 18-22 between the partnerships?

[campboy]

Should he double 1♣ for TO with 7 HCP? Shouldn't he try to find a part-score game when from the bidding it's obvious we have a good fit in at least one major and points split around the lines of 18-22 between the partnerships?

Neither of these things is obvious by the time the double is made. Both opponents are unlimited; with reasonable assumptions about their style 22 is about the minimum they will have. They haven't shown a fit in either minor, so there is no reason to think we have a fit in a major. On the actual deal your side had 14 cards in the majors; why couldn't each be a seven-card fit?

[gwnn]

edited out. Edited November 12, 2010 by gwnn

[Scoti]

To answer the lead Question, he has bad manners or was experiencing poor impulse control and did not want it to get worse. imo :) Your P had 3 certain club tricks and probably 4 if he scores in singleton suit, thus relies on you for 1 trick at most. With your hand, the Set is certain. How to know it was Penalty ... a number of ways.

 

1) He should never pass then call a TO dbl at 3 level. Nor even a Neg X as his entry to an auction only ops have bid in & you both passed. Not likely anyone calls for a sac suit vs 3 clubs too! ;)

 

2) It came after an op jump, in an unconfirmed suit as well. And ops P did not elevate the bid, after bidder Claimed he could go higher if his P has even 2 clubs and min pts. (A) Does That sound a LIKELY Make, knowing your pt holding and your P had enough pt to dbl, no matter what kind of dbl, & that ops P refused to Game or even Step the bid ?? (B) So where are the rest of the Clubs?! aha :)

 

3) The initial bids of your side should tell you both that, you hold less than 13, & P holds less than 12 needed for a 3rd seat Open. 12 & 11 = 23 pt MAX. Knowing it can take(non-Goulash anyway)22 pts with great fit, & up to 25pts (hcp + dist)to Make a 3-of-Suit contract, is it likely P gambles you will give him at least 11 pts if he even holds the full 11, AND provide him with a new suit where the 2 of you will hold 8 or more in suit ??! Hopefully your P doe Not make such bids. lol.

 

Personally I play TO Dbl at 1 level, NEG at 2, Penalty starts at 3 ... BUT you must be sure you can Set if ever DBL 3-MAJ for it gives them Game if you fail, for only scoring 3 trks. So to dbl 3 Maj I will hold the entire Set in my own hand and not ask an unbidding P for any of it. VS 4-MAJ I will have need of no more than one trk from P, and hold 4 or more "factors" in hand. EG's: # 0f Quicktrick Honors (A,A+K etc), Void, Singleton, Doubleton with Ace, 4+ Trumps, HCP combined over 14 (They need to hold 27pts to Make 80 % of the time at 4 level, tho 26 might do) , or I Lead not my P, etc. So estimate how many Factors your P may have too, for deciding if its Pen.

[straube]

I always play in the relaxed club. Not that it spares me my fair share of bad partners (my best bad beat story so far has to do with an impatient partner conceding a slam with me holding the trump A for the setting trick - and the declarer accepting for whatever reason), but I hope it means people are less mad at me when I make mistakes.

In any case, one thing that seems to be in the consensus is that you don't start competing when the opponents have worked their way up to the 3 level (not by preemption, that is). So I should've doubled back on the 1 level and partner's double is more likely to be for penalties because if he was short in clubs he would've doubled immediately. What I'm missing here is why not consider that partner would also need points, either to penalize or to TO after 1♣ at first. 3♣ rebid by opener means he has at least 15, I'm looking at 11. That leaves 14 points. E doubles after 3♣ and S passes, suggesting his hand is weak - he doesn't have great clubs as he removed to diamonds before, he doesn't have 10 points or something near that or he'd have gone to 3NT, so odds are he has something like 2-3 clubs, 3-5 diamonds and something like 3-3 in the majors (I'm assuming he'd have said 1M with a four-card major). So partner has at most four clubs and probably around 7 points, which is not something he wants to penalize with, does he?

Could I have drawn the right conclusions from the bidding somehow? Where is the mistake in my thinking?

 

 

The mistake in your thinking is looking at your hand. You've concluded (I gather) that because you're looking at 11 points, this makes it more likely that partner's bid means one thing or another. Instead, you need to look at the sequence and determine what the double means in that particular sequence.

 

I can tell you that Mike Lawrence states that 1C-1D, 2C X is penalty....even though some partnerships may play that takeout for those rarer 4-4-1-4 hands. Now at the 3-level, there is even more likely need for it as penalty because offering 4-4 at the 3-level is suicide, especially against a strong auction such as this.

 

Partner didn't have his bid (he needs more strength as well as good clubs) but he lucked out that you had the balance of high cards. The double was penalty. Be happy you can help.

 

Btw, 1-eyed jack wrote a great post.

[mgoetze]

Btw, 1-eyed jack wrote a great post.

 

Impossible, it has a rating of only 0.

[chebfarid]

Don't worry too much of your p's "disgust", happens to meet badly educated players in bbo - fortunately you find much more gentle people to play with :)

As the others pointed out, X is a call which strongly depends on partnership agreements, imho there are no standards to treat them, though sometimes you catch the meaning using your logic.

I also agree that with your cards I'd not have passed twice: if X in the second round or 1♠ again depends mostly on partnership agreements, without them I think 1♠ works fine anyway.

 

Cheers

Farid

[han]

I think the double of 3C should be a penalty double.

 

I would have overcalled 1S with the given hand.

[Antraxxx]

I though you generally overcall with better suits than this, because partner is likely to lead my suit and it's not really a suit we can develop unless he happens to have a bunch of honors in it. No?

[Stephen Tu]

I though you generally overcall with better suits than this, because partner is likely to lead my suit and it's not really a suit we can develop unless he happens to have a bunch of honors in it. No?

 

One would prefer a better suit, but sometimes your hand is strong enough that you should act (on average action gets you better score than passing) despite the mediocre suit, and it's generally more effective to act earlier rather than later, because you rob space from the opponents (esp if partner can raise) making their decisions less accurate. Overcalling finds your 5-3 spade fits (and 5-4 spade fits) most effectively, without you having to stick your neck out a level higher over 2c/2d, or possibly 3c (partner might have a hand worth 3s over 3c, but only if he knows you have five spades + values).

 

Lead direction is a secondary consideration to competing effectively for partscores/games. Half the time you rate to be on lead anyway, so it doesn't end up mattering. And a reasonable fraction of the time that partner leads a spade it won't cost or will be the best lead anyway, or if you didn't bid partner would lead a spade, so the overcall didn't really induce the bad lead. On this hand, if partner is going to lead an unbid suit, you do prefer he lead a spade rather than a heart. Also, vs. suit contracts, "developing" the suit really isn't a consideration since the opps are going to ruff later rounds. Mostly you are worrying about not having the lead blow a trick. If RHO has the ace it won't often matter, the nightmare scenario for this holding is usually when partner has Jxx/Jx and leads it when LHO has the ace and RHO the Q, and with your side lacking the T you blow your trick in the suit.

 

At the one level many people have rather lax standards for suit quality, because one can generally get away with murder here. The opps have so many hand types they need to be able to describe that they generally have to define their doubles as takeout (or support, situationally), rather than penalty, else they are giving up more than they are gaining in extra penalties. Also it's often hard for them after only one round of bidding to judge whether they can both set you and have it be worth more than their contract.

 

One usually avoids overcalling at the TWO level on Kxxxx in live non-fit auctions unless the hand is otherwise so overwhelmingly strong that the risk of missing game by not acting outweighs the risk of going for a large number. It's easier for them to get you at the 2 level, they need one fewer trick on defense. Also when you are overcalling at the 2 level the opps have bid their major, their hand is better defined, easier for their partner to know what to do.

[Antraxxx]

Thanks a lot for your answer.

[ewleongusa]

Before I begin, I don't know what you guys consider beginner/intermediate, but I'm a real beginner. I've tried reading most of the discussions here and I can't figure them out at all. All sorts of abbreviations and conventions that mean nothing to me. So please, try to keep it simple.

[hv=pc=n&w=sk8765ht964dak5c3&d=w&v=0&b=8&a=p1cp1dp3cdp3sppp]133|200[/hv]

I think my first two passes are okay. While I have points, I don't have any good suit to show, and I can't call NT with a singleton in their suit. The problem therefore arose after east's double. At the table, I thought that since I have 5-4 in the majors and 10 pts, it's possible east has something similar in terms of strength and shape. So, he sees shortness in their suits, but hasn't enough strength to TO double and hasn't a good enough suit to overcall with. Then, after the opponents keep mucking about, he sees an opportunity to try and get the partscore, as he estimates we have roughly the same amount of points and a good fit in at least one of the majors.

So, I took the double out to 3S, which was most likely the reason he stood up and left after the opening lead. His hand was this:

[hv=pc=n&e=sjhaq52dj92cqjt98]133|100[/hv]

So clearly he meant the double to be penalty, and was annoyed that I could think otherwise. Seeing as he was advanced and I am not, I'm guessing he's right, but how could I have known in advance?

 

Thanks.

 

Well, partner's double certainly didn't ask you for your opinion.

Really, how can he have a takeout double at the three level when he didn't have a takeout double at the one level?

 

Eric Leong