Bidding question on rebid?

[ajain456]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq987ht7da8ckt7]133|100[/hv]

Playing 2/1 system

What is my rebid?

I opened 1♠.

My partner responds 2♥

Is my rebid 2♠ or 3♠?

Thanks.

[mtvesuvius]

2♠. A jump to 3♠ should show a suit that will usually play for no losers opposite a stiff. If you had a seventh spade, then 3♠ would be your rebid.

 

There is also a style aspect here. If you play that rebidding 2 of your major only shows 5, then you may have a few problems later in the bidding. If 2M promises 6, then you will be fine. Over 3N by partner (especially when 2♠ could be 5), you have a close call whether to bid 4N though... Personally I would pass, but slam could easily be making.

[bucky]

This type of question is a manifest of why I think 2/1 system is not for casual partnership. Just agreeing to play 2-over-1-game-force is not good enough (actually not even close to being good). You need LOTS of discussion and agreements to take advantage of the system.

[whereagles]

as above. Without agreements, I guess I'd go with 3♠

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

Matter of agreement, but I would go with 3S.

 

One of the thinks I see all around is, that neither side

starts to limit its hand.

With the given hand, you have a nice 6 card suit and add.

values, so tell this p, that implies that a 2S response

would limit your hand.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Venom]

In answering what rebid might best serve the partnership, arguments can be made for both 2 or 3S for reasons already presented. However, IMO, at least part of the rebid decision should be based on opener's holding in responder's heart suit, in this case Tx. Due to this partial support, I recommend a 2-spade rebid. (We will be getting to game: I haven't had a partner pass in a forcing sequence within the past 2 weeks.)

 

Think about responder's hand and potential problems. So far responder has only informed you of having at least an opening bid and at least 5 hearts. Not much to go on, yet. If opener rebids 2S, this leaves many more options for rebids for responder after which opener can have a better picture of how to move. With AKQ7th of spades, the issue of what is going to be trumps is likely predetermined and established by a 3S rebid. Otherwise, opener needs more information from responder. Consider this: With the given opening hand, if opener rebids 3S to show the good suit and/ or extra values, what is responder to do with an opening hand and a decent 6-card heart suit? 4Hts?-have you agreed on the meaning of 4Hts in this sequence. If opener rebids 2S, responder has room to rebid the hearts if warranted without cramping the bidding. A raise to 4 by opener might then show a minimum with 2 (maybe 3 hearts) while a bid of 4m might now show at least 2-card heart support and extra value.

 

One may or may not agree with my reasoning. But I suspect that most would agree with my premise that opener should at least consider responder's potential rebid problems when deciding on his/ her own initial rebid. Rules like 6-4-6 or always make this specific rebid, whatever that might be, are guidelines and not aq substitute for reasoning and trying to facilitate communication: sometimes one needs to plan in advance.

 

Tx

DHL (prev. Double !)

[bucky]

What is a rule of 6-4-6?

[mike777]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq987ht7da8ckt7]133|100[/hv]

Playing 2/1 system

What is my rebid?

I opened 1♠.

My partner responds 2♥

Is my rebid 2♠ or 3♠?

Thanks.

 

 

 

2s easy.....the whole point of playing 2/1 is too conserve space.

[ajain456]

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq987ht7da8ckt7]133|100[/hv]

Playing 2/1 system

What is my rebid?

I opened 1♠.

My partner responds 2♥

Is my rebid 2♠ or 3♠?

Thanks.

 

I bid 2♠ and now My partner bids 4♠.

Do I have to bid further to proceed to slam?

I did not try for slam.

Am I at fault for not trying slam?

What is the bidding sequence to get to slam in 2/1 method?

Thanks.

 

 

Where the opponent at the other table bids grand slam on precision method and made it.

We lost by one imp.

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq987ht7da8ckt7&w=sj5hq8dq7654cq854&n=st4hak654dkj9ca96&e=s632hj932dt32cj32&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p1c(16+%20Any%20dist.)p1h(8+%2C%20%21H)p1s(%21S%20Natural)p2n(11+%20Balanced)p4s(Minimum%2C%206+%20%21S)p4n(Asks%20Keycard%201430%20in%20%21S.)p5d(3%20keycards)p5h(Asks%20for%20Q%21S%3F)p6c(Yes.%20Q%21S%20and%20K%21C)p7n(Grand%20slam%20try.)ppp]399|300[/hv]

[Venom]

Some people ( I believe that Marty Bergen is one proponent) recommend bidding a hand holding both a 6-card and a 4-card suit by first bidding the 6-card suit, next bidding the 4-card suit, and then rebidding the 6-card suit regardless of had strength. Others (Frank Stewart being one proponent) recommend rebidding the 6-card suit first and then bidding the 4-card suit if necessary when holding a minimum opening hand, and initially rebidding the 4-card suit followed by rebidding the 6-card suit only when holding additional values.

 

DHL/ Don

aka Double !

[mtvesuvius]

The problem lies in partner's 4♠ call over 2♠, which shows a bare minimum hand. Partner may not have the best possible hand, but it's certainly more than the dead minimum of xx AJxxx Qxx AQx or something similar. I believe your partner's hand is a 2N or 3♠ call depending on your style. In my style, I would bid 3♠, then South is off to the races.

 

I cannot blame you for passing 4♠, as this shows a hand with very little slam interest, opposite even some total maximums.

 

EDIT: As for the Grand reached in the other room... 7NT is a horrible spot compared to 7♠, in fact, as a precision pair, they should be embarrassed :P

 

I don't know if I would find 7♠ after my auction (1S-2H-2S-3S-4N-5H-5N-6D), now S can ask about the ♥K with 6♥, and that will get us there. South will of course have to assume 3-3 or 4-2♥, in order to establish a ♣ pitch. However, if South lacks an imagination and bids 6♠, that will be the final contract.

[Venom]

2♥ followed by 4♠ is played by many as being a "shape raise" showing good hearts and spades and no outside controls. Your partner might have been more successful had he/ she rebid (depending on agreement) 2 or 3 NT for responder's first rebid in order to indicate a balanced hand. Spade support, if possessed, could be shown later.

 

DHL

 

n.b.: the concept of "fast arrival" is a controversial issue. I recommend that fast arrival be applicable only after partner has clearly limited the strength of his/ her hand.

[mike777]

again the whole point of 2/1 is too conserve space except for afew limited type hands....here partner can just bid 3s(assuming you play 2s shows 6)....slam try over 2s....no problem yet......

[bucky]

4♠ is a terrible bid. Maybe your partner forgot your agreement of playing 2/1 system.

 

7NT is not a good contract either, certainly much worse than 7♠. Honestly, I am content in getting to a small slam. Simple sequences like 1♠ 2♥ 2♠ 3NT 6♠/6NT would work.

[the hog]

This is a 3S bid. Show that you have an excellent suit; bidding is too hard otherwise.

 

4S by partner shows a min or even slightly better than min, given that you could only bid 2S first up. Incidentally, I and many others, play that the 2S bid could be only a 5 card suit with a weakish hand.

 

Notice how much easier you make life for your partner with an immediate 3S bid. Now the slam is very easy to find. I would blame both of you equally.

[P_Marlowe]

I bid 2♠ and now My partner bids 4♠.

Do I have to bid further to proceed to slam?

I did not try for slam.

Am I at fault for not trying slam?

What is the bidding sequence to get to slam in 2/1 method?

Thanks.

 

 

Where the opponent at the other table bids grand slam on precision method and made it.

We lost by one imp.

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq987ht7da8ckt7&w=sj5hq8dq7654cq854&n=st4hak654dkj9ca96&e=s632hj932dt32cj32&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p1c(16+%20Any%20dist.)p1h(8+%2C%20%21H)p1s(%21S%20Natural)p2n(11+%20Balanced)p4s(Minimum%2C%206+%20%21S)p4n(Asks%20Keycard%201430%20in%20%21S.)p5d(3%20keycards)p5h(Asks%20for%20Q%21S%3F)p6c(Yes.%20Q%21S%20and%20K%21C)p7n(Grand%20slam%20try.)ppp]399|300[/hv]

 

Did 2S promise a 6 carder?

 

The answer is - matter of partnership agreement, just because you happen to

have a one, does not mean, that you will always, if you open 1S and rebid 2S,

assuming you need add. values for introducing a new suit on the 3 level, than

2S may be based on a hand with min. opening values and a 5431 hand pattern..

 

So 4S is just a bid, which reveals, that you have a disagrement about the meaning

of 2S, and before you start to think how to reach slam, try to discuss with partner,

what 2S showes / implies and what not.

 

The actual hand pair is a poster child for my earlier argument, both have something

to spare, but not much, and if you overload the 2S response you will have trouble

finding out, that both side have add. values.

 

But I am just repeating myself - before you start to discuss a slam auction, discuss

the meaning of 2S with your partner.

 

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Zelandakh]

1S - 2H

2S - 2N

3S - 4C

4D - 4H

5C - 5N

7S

...looks to be quite a nice auction. Of course South could also just RKCB.

[the hog]

1S - 2H

2S - 2N

3S - 4C

4D - 4H

5C - 5N

7S

...looks to be quite a nice auction. Of course South could also just RKCB.

 

Would south not bid the same way with:

 

KQJxxxx

xx

Ax

Kx

 

5NT usually says "bid 7 with 2 of the top 3 hons".

[mike777]

1s=2h

2s(6)=3s(slam try)

4c=4d

4nt=5h

6c(kc, grand try, tends to deny kh)=7s?

 

I understand 6s

[P_Marlowe]

Would south not bid the same way with:

 

KQJxxxx

xx

Ax

Kx

 

5NT usually says "bid 7 with 2 of the top 3 hons".

 

Agree, and maybe South would also bid the same with

 

KQxxxx

xx

Ax

Kxx

 

and now facing 10x in spade, one may or may not want

to be in 6S.

 

It is certainly possible to interprets the proposed

auction differently, but one possible interpretion is,

that South showed nothing more than an opening bid with

6 spades and a diamond control, up to 4D, ... sure 4H

in the given auction meant as Last Train may safe the

day, but was it intended as Last Train?

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[mtvesuvius]

That is why Keycard was invented.

[the hog]

That is why Keycard was invented.

 

You think so? The Sharples twins didn't have keycard and they were amongst the best bidders of all time.

[billw55]

This type of question is a manifest of why I think 2/1 system is not for casual partnership. Just agreeing to play 2-over-1-game-force is not good enough (actually not even close to being good). You need LOTS of discussion and agreements to take advantage of the system.

Agree. In particular, there is a vast amount of detail work regarding the meaning of opener's rebids. As this thread shows, there are many methods/treatments/expectations in this department.

 

To really properly play 2/1 with a new partner that I plan to play with semi-regularly, I would need answers to the following questions at a minimum. There are many ways to answer these. Being on the same page is important, but what two players, in isolation, will answer them all the same?

 

What does opener's reverse show? (1H-2D-2S)?

What does opener's high reverse show? (1H-2D-3C)?

What does opener's jump rebid show? (1H-2D-3H)?

What does opener's jump shift show? (1H-2C-3D)?

Does opener's simple rebid promise 6 cards? (1H-2C-2H)?

What do opener's jump and non-jump notrump rebids show?

Is 2C over 1D forcing to game?

Is game still forced if responder rebids his suit? (1H-2C-2D-3C)?

In gerenal, who is expected to be captain in a 2/1 sequence?

 

.. and also answers for several of these questions in forcing 1NT auctions.

[TWO4BRIDGE]

You think so? The Sharples twins didn't have keycard and they were amongst the best bidders of all time.

 

This always reminds me of Justin's recent post reply:

 

http://forums.bridgebase.com/index.php?showtopic=41586&st=15

 

QUOTE (manudude03 @ Sep 14 2010, 07:04 AM)

I've heard people say that the best way to improve slam bidding is to not have any ace asking bids at all, then you can phase in whatever to avoid the slams off 2 aces, it will show you how rarely blackwood is actually needed.

 

Justin Lall :

"Lol what?"

 

"Keycard is bid on almost every slam hand at all levels, and when it isn't it's usually because there was a quantitative auction like 2N-4N-6N, or the opponents preempted you out of being about to bid keycard. This is not for no reason, keycard is absolutely vital to slam bidding, GL trying to cuebid your way into every slam correctly."

[TWO4BRIDGE]

I bid 2♠ and now My partner bids 4♠.

Do I have to bid further to proceed to slam?

I did not try for slam.

Am I at fault for not trying slam?

What is the bidding sequence to get to slam in 2/1 method?

Thanks.

Where the opponent at the other table bids grand slam on precision method and made it.

We lost by one imp.

[hv=pc=n&s=sakq987ht7da8ckt7&w=sj5hq8dq7654cq854&n=st4hak654dkj9ca96&e=s632hj932dt32cj32&d=e&v=e&b=6&a=p1c(16+%20Any%20dist.)p1h(8+%2C%20%21H)p1s(%21S%20Natural)p2n(11+%20Balanced)p4s(Minimum%2C%206+%20%21S)p4n(Asks%20Keycard%201430%20in%20%21S.)p5d(3%20keycards)p5h(Asks%20for%20Q%21S%3F)p6c(Yes.%20Q%21S%20and%20K%21C)p7n(Grand%20slam%20try.)ppp]399|300[/hv]

 

My sequence is similar to Mike's ... except that my "cheapest K-ask" is a specific K-ask and if I by-pass the cheapest K-ask, then it is a 3rd Rnd Ctrl-ask in the bid suit ( Q or xx doubleton ):

 

1S - 2H ( 2/1 GF )

2S(6+) - 3S ( 2 or 3 cards )

4C - 4D

4NT(RKC) - 5H ( 2 - sQ )

5NT - 6C ( cK )

6D( cheapest 2nd K-ask) - 6H ( hK )

??

counting 6s, 2h, 2d, 2c = 12

-- 7NT needs Diam hook

-- 7S needs either a 3-3 Ht split, or hQJ bare, or fall back on Diam hook

 

( Either needs 3-2 Sp split )