Over a preemptive 3C

[Phil]

All vul, IMPs. RHO is dealer.

 

(3♣) - ?

 

♠void ♥AJ9xxx ♦AQTx ♣AQx

 

thanks

[gwnn]

double is sick, 3♥ is feeble, 4♥ looks about right, even if the hearts are a little weak. I admit that 3NT came to mind, but I did not choose it.

[ArtK78]

I agree that 3♥ is feeble.

 

Put me down for feeble.

 

My partner is not likely to pass 3♥ on most hands that will make 4♥. The problem is that he will assume that his spade values are working, which they are not. Heart cards or length is of paramount importance.

 

By bidding 3♥ I will be better placed should he advance with 3♠, as I can then bid 3NT. However, if I bid 4♥ and he advances with 4♠, I will not be well placed.

[hrothgar]

I'm taking the low road as well.

 

4♥ leaves us incredible exposed with a weak trump suit and lots of red suit finesses going into the wrong hand.

[keylime]

3♥ here for me. If I owned the T♥ maybe 4 then.

[pooltuna]

hmmm pick the least ugly call. Well I will try X maybe partner can pass. I clearly have much better options after partner calls 3♦ or 3♥(fat chance :rolleyes: ). Over 3♠ I can try 3NT. Over 4♣/4♥ I will try 6/7 ♥. Over 4♦ I will try 6/7♦ and finally over 4♠ I will shudder.

[aguahombre]

Doubt that we can recover from the expected advances to a double.

 

Feeble 3♥ is certainly conservative, but pard knows my floor for an immediate 3H is a bit higher than that of most humans.

[Siegmund]

I voted 4H.

 

It's an overbid, but at least it warns partner I don't want to hear about his spade suit and tells him I have a good hand. If the majors were reversed I would be willing to double and pull the 'wrong' major response back to my 6-card suit, but I can't let it go X-p-4S now.

 

The feeble folk will be right some percentage of the time. I am just speculating it's more like 30% than 60%.

[nigel_k]

4♥ for me too. Surely this is the percentage action even if the worst case scenario is unpleasant.

[Fluffy]

I'd bid 3♥ so I can ebid 3NT and everyone is happy

[akhare]

3♥ for me -- 4♥ with better spots...

[aguahombre]

I voted 4H.

 

The feeble folk will be right some percentage of the time. I am just speculating it's more like 30% than 60%.

I snipped the post to focus on two actions: 3♥ vs. 4♥.

 

Percentage estimates about "right or wrong" on 3H depend on variables, such as what pard expects for 3H.

 

4♥ will be wrong almost all the times we don't belong in hearts, and some of the times we do belong in hearts, but partner doesn't guess how short and weak the suit is --and we get too high.

 

3H will be wrong if partner also chooses the low road.

 

I suspect that a significant percent of the time, both calls will lead to the same result, or both calls will lead to different bad results.

[Pict]

If my choices are 3H and 4H - then amazingly I am for 4H.

[kayin801]

Not bidding 4♥ is extremely pessimistic.

 

(and I am closer to 3NT than 3♥)

[655321]

Good problem, I will bid 4♥ but I am torn between bidding 3♥ planning to bid 3NT over partner's 3♠, and just overcalling 4♥. I choose 4♥ because if partner has a weak hand with something like Qxx heart and a singleton club 4♥ doesn't need much more to make (♦J, or diamond finesse, etc).

[Phil]

The person that held this was criticized by their partner for bidding 4♥ which I agree with.

 

I would never consider 3♥, and double is not even on the map for me.

 

3N did not cross my mind until I read the answers here.

[Flameous]

I go low with 3H, hoping that when two people have 10+ spades, at least one of them can't be quiet about them :) Good problem and I think I could be quite easily persuaded to bid 4H.

[the hog]

3H for me also. I think 4H is a butcher's bid with these H spots.

[Cascade]

hoping that when two people have 10+ spades

Maybe against some players.

 

However against many players there is not guarantee of this unless you are thinking that the preempter is one of the two people.

[jdeegan]

3♥, but 4♥ is a close second.

 

Let's place some cards. RHO is vul, and should have 7♣ to the KJ10, a second high card holding (odds favor it to be in ♠) and not have 7-2-2-2 distribution. I have a well-placed 17 count. All this leaves about 16 or so HCP for the other two hands.

 

Let's say RHO is something like:

 

QJx

x

xx

KJ10xxxx

 

The two unknown hands are dividing 10♠, 6♥, 7♦ and 3♣ between them. I have two worries: (1)LHO is loaded in ♥ and high cards and will double 4♥. (2) Partner has just enough for me to make 4♥, but will pass 3♥.

 

Odds favor that partner will have OK ♥ support (honor doubleton or three small or better) plus a wasted honor in ♠. My thought is that the wasted ♠ honor will be just enough to coax him to raise 3♥ to 4♥, so bidding 4♥ straightaway is not necessary.

[Phil]

I think JDeegan makes several tenuous assumptions:

 

1. There is no reason to think the preemptor has anything but K-7th of clubs. A spade, diamond or even heart card is possible.

 

2. There is no basis to make any assumptions about RHO's shape. While 7222 is less likely than 7(321) it has little or no bearing on this exercise. While it is convenient to place a spade fragment on RHO's hand, there is no reason for it.

 

3. There is no reason to think that LHO has hearts when partner does not.

 

4. There is plenty of reason to think that partner will pass 3♥ when you are cold for four, but not for the reasons he states. I would be concerned with partner having a partial fit in diamonds that makes 4♥ excellent. I think its pretty unlikely we are getting a raise with xx, and wouldn't be surprised if I don't get a raise with Hx of hearts, with some bits and pieces in diamonds and spades.

[mtvesuvius]

I am a 3♥ bidder, mainly because I want to be able to bid 3N over 3♠ by partner. Although 4♥ could easily be right, it also can be very wrong if partner decided to bid 4♠ over this, or when partner has a ♥ stiff. Although I may be missing some games by bidding only 3♥, I think it is worth it.

 

I'll also admit that bidding 6♦ over 3♣ came to mind.

[wyman]

I'll also admit that bidding 6♦ over 3♣ came to mind.

 

lololol

[bucky]

Why would I worry too much about partner bidding 4♠ over 4♥? The 4♥ bid doesn't promise spade support, does it?

[mfa1010]

4♥. I don't like a style with huge pressure on partner to find a raise. Give him ♦K and we are already about there.

 

I would have thought that the idea behind 3♥ was to get the diamond suit in, not to bid 3NT. Maybe that just underlines that I don't really understand 3♥.

 

If partner bids 4♠ natural over 4♥ I would be delighted, since it's not like my heart suit plays well opposite nothing from partner, so he will surely be right about getting out of hearts then.