1S-2D showing hearts

[straube]

I've seen 1S-2D showing a GF in hearts or GI with 6 hearts (Sabine Zenkel does this I think) but I haven't seen many/good continuations. Know any?

 

The problem I see it is that the large majority of the time responder has the GF hand. The bid, however, looks like it's designed to let the partnership play in 2H. So...opener ought not be able to rebid 2H with any medium hand holding 2 hearts.

 

1S-2D, 2H=minimum with 1 heart?

 

Cuts it very fine.

 

and then perhaps...

 

1S-2D, 2S=minimum with 6 spades?

1S-2D, 2N=GF other?

1S-2D, 3m=GF natural?

1S-2D, 3H=minimum 3 hearts?

 

See what I mean? One has difficulty showing good hands without consuming a lot of space.

 

Now I always have heard how cramped 1S-2H auctions are. Why then if we devote 1S-2D into showing hearts would we include GI 6 hearts?

 

Maybe 1S-2D=GF hearts? Then 1S-2D, 2H can mark time...

 

but now we need 1S-3H=GI 6 hearts or perhaps 1S-1N, 2L-3H=GI 6 hearts? Or perhaps 1S-3H=1 spade and 6 hearts and 1S-1N, 2L-3H=2 spades and 6 hearts?

 

Ideas?

[awm]

I'd go with:

 

2♥=min less than 3♥; responder passes with heart invite and anything else is gf and natural

3♥=three or more hearts; gf based on fit; serious/non available for slam

2♠=min with good/long spades and short ♥; responder should usually pass with invite; non-pass gf

Else=nat and gf

 

This lets you play 2♥ on many invites and also keeps the bidding low on many gf sequences (mostly freeing up responder to bid 2♠ natural on a gf.

[Siegmund]

It does look like a tight squeeze, with only 1 step to sort out the non-fit hands. (Still, it should be better than 1S-2H inv+ in SA, I suppose -- where the only real solution is to accept reaching game on inadequate values frequently.)

 

I experimented with 1S-1NT=4+ hearts, possibly a minimum response, 2m natural and limited, 2H artificial and game-forcing without either major (sort of like a natural 2NT bid). I was quite happy with the 1S-1NT sequences -- basically 1S-1NT-2H and 1S-1NT-3H were exactly parallel with 1H-1S-2S and 1H-1S-3S in standard -- but somewhat less happy with the 2m responses.

[Free]

I wrote an article about 1♠-2♥ on my blog, and added a paragraph about reversing the 2♦ and 2♥ meanings. You can find it here.

[Valardent]

My experience is that 1♠-2♦/ 2♥ should be forcing.

 

It is not worth to play it NF, covering the case of a weak responder 5-8(9) holding 6(+)♥, loosing a huge amount of precision for other medium opener hands.

 

I play 2♦ is either inv with 5♥2♠ or with 6(7)♥ or any GF5+♥ without a ♠fit with some exceptions like 3 small ♠ and a (semi-)solid ♥suit or a heavy 3-6-2-2 without minor ctrls.

 

In this context, 1♠-2♦ :

 

2♥= sort of trash bid 11-15 (could hv 3♥ if minimum)

2♠= 6+♠GF (13+)

2NT= (15)16+ usually balanced or semi-balanced (could be 5♠-5♦ 20+)

3m = 5♠-5m 14-16

3♥=14+3+♥

3♠=5♠-5♣ 17+

3NT=5♠-5♦17-19

4m/4♥=splinter/5422 minimum

 

with 2 pages of developpement following

[straube]

well, my bad for not stipulating that we're playing 1S is limited to 10-15.

 

For the condition's I laid out, I like awm's structure. But I'm still not sure about the conditions. I don't like that the first two of opener's rebids show minimums and are nf.

 

If for example I have AJxxxx Kx Axx xx I probably want to GF as this should make a decent dummy if partner has the GI 6H hand (or give me another Jack if you think it's not quite enough). So now I have to choose between an awful 3S call or a 2N bid which doesn't tell partner about my sixth spade.

 

I tallied 50 hands and found that a hand with six+ hearts, 0-2 hearts, and about 12-13 hcps has

 

14% void spade

50% singleton spade

36% doubleton spade

 

I'm wondering what happens if 1S-3H shows 6 hearts, GI and void or stiff spade.

 

Then I can either put the 6H/2S hands in 1N (which for us is semiforcing) or I can put it in 2D.

 

Then 1S-2D, 2S would be 6 spades of undefined strength and it would create a GF.

 

But my thought would be to risk having 1N passed out with 6H/2S GI.

 

This makes for a much easier auction after 1S-2D GF hearts.

 

2H-all else

2S-6 spades

2N-5 clubs

3C-5 diamonds

3D up-fit hearts

 

or I suppose one could just switch the 2H and 2N rebids. Or one could allow for relays of certain of opener's hands.

[spotlight7]

Hi:

 

They open very light according to many reports.

 

It might help them to be able to stop in 2H after 1S-2D*

 

You gain bidding room if the auction goes 1S-2D*-2H

 

They also open 4+ majors.

 

Regards,

Robert

[straube]

Our 1S-2C is a GF relay and we can pretty much relay for every single shape.

 

A basic question to ask is when ought we show hearts (GI+ or GF) as opposed to relaying? I would think that 1S-2D ought to be a hand that has minimal interest in slam.

 

Then perhaps 1S-2D, 2H can be nf.

 

I still wonder whether 1S-2D, 2S should be nf. It seems like it should at least be a 1-rd force. If not, what do we do with the non-minimum (maybe medium even) hands with 6 spades?

[awm]

I don't think this is as much a problem as you seem to.

 

1♠ - 2♦ (hearts)

2N (GF, less than 3♥, no 5-card minor) and:

 

3m = 4+ minor with 5+♥

.... 3♠ = six spades

.... 3♥ = doubleton heart, usually not strong in the other minor

.... 3N = good holding in other minor, usually five spades only

bidding either minor is available to show minor suit fit

 

3♥ = 6+♥

.... 3♠ = six-plus spades, but not a good enough suit for 1♠-2♦-3♠

.... 3N = short hearts, normally 51(34) hand

.... 4♥ = normal raise to game

.... 4m = cuebid for hearts, really good hand with doubleton heart

 

3♠ = 3+♠ with hearts and a GF, sets the suit for cuebids (like fit jump)

 

3N = 2533 GF hand, can be corrected to 4♠

[straube]

I don't think this is as much a problem as you seem to.

 

1♠ - 2♦ (hearts)

2N (GF, less than 3♥, no 5-card minor) and:

 

3m = 4+ minor with 5+♥

.... 3♠ = six spades

.... 3♥ = doubleton heart, usually not strong in the other minor

.... 3N = good holding in other minor, usually five spades only

bidding either minor is available to show minor suit fit

 

3♥ = 6+♥

.... 3♠ = six-plus spades, but not a good enough suit for 1♠-2♦-3♠

.... 3N = short hearts, normally 51(34) hand

.... 4♥ = normal raise to game

.... 4m = cuebid for hearts, really good hand with doubleton heart

 

3♠ = 3+♠ with hearts and a GF, sets the suit for cuebids (like fit jump)

 

3N = 2533 GF hand, can be corrected to 4♠

I like your structure. I think I'd use it for limited hands. Like responder has 12-15 or so. Relay (2C) with the bigger hands. Do you agree or would you choose to bid 2D even when responder had a more slammish hand?

[awm]

I like your structure. I think I'd use it for limited hands. Like responder has 12-15 or so. Relay (2C) with the bigger hands. Do you agree or would you choose to bid 2D even when responder had a more slammish hand?

It rather depends on the hand type. Strong semi-balanced hands are certainly better off to relay as you describe. Here are the hand types where I think it's better to show hearts despite having serious extras:

 

(1) A hand with self-sufficient hearts. This is often better off to set trumps and get opener to cuebid. Relaying gets you a lot of shape information which is typically much less useful than finding out about specific controls (which normally come much later in the relay scan). For example x AQJTxxxx Ax AJ could relay, but you mostly just want to hear about the spade ace and minor suit kings; slam is great opposite Axxxx - Kxxx Kxxx but you don't quite have five-level safety opposite KQJxx xx Qxxx KQ despite more points and a better fit. Yes you'll eventually get to a "control ask" if you relay and work this out, but it's not 100% clear you get to play in 4♥ and not 5♥ all the times when slam is bad.

 

(2) A very freak two-suited hand with hearts and a minor. For example suppose that responder has ♠x ♥AQJxxx ♦- ♣AQJxxx. Two round kings and slam is cold, but it's also easy to imagine a partner hand without five-level safety. With freaky distribution, showing shape and letting partner evaluate is often better than trying to relay out partner's hand. Of course, this hand is "technically" in the 12-15 range but you can see that it has serious slam interest.

 

(3) A pure hand with a spade fit and strong hearts. For example AKxx AQJxx Qx xx can easily produce a slam or not produce a slam. Partner holding the spade king and some minor suit controls is the key, and it's better to show this type and let him decide rather than trying to relay. For example Qxxxx Kx Kxx Axx is a great slam whereas Jxxxx xx Axx AQx is lousy despite the same distribution and control count.

[straube]

Thanks a lot. This makes a lot of sense to me. I think that I'd tweak your structure a bit so as to cater to those sorts of distributional hands. With a balanced hand we'd just relay. With a middling strength 1-5-(43), we could show the hearts but...

 

Now...

 

1S-2D,

.....2N (GF)

..........3m=5+

..........3H=6+

..........3S=fit

..........3N=1-5-(43) middling strength

 

What do you think?

[Zelandakh]

Hanlon-Mcgann are (arguably) the top pair that play this with limited (max 16) opening bids. Their scheme is

 

1♠-2♦: shows 6+ hearts 9+, 5+ hearts 10-12 or 5+ hearts GF

Then 2♥: 0-2 hearts 10-14

2♠: natural

2NT: 3+ support 14-16, then 3♣ asks shape

 

This is probably a good starting point. A link to their cc is below if you want to see other parts of their methods...

http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files...nlon-mcgann.pdf

[gwnn]

Some of my friends are playing that

 

1S-2D

 

shows 6+ points and 5+ hearts (and opener usually accepts simply). All I wanted to say is: don't play it like that, it is unworkable. :P

[whereagles]

I fiddled with a similar idea once:

 

1♥ 1♠ = a 1NT reply

1♥ 1NT...2♦ = transfer (diams = heart invite+)

 

but that has a few problems that I never bothered to try to solve.

[straube]

Hanlon-Mcgann are (arguably) the top pair that play this with limited (max 16) opening bids. Their scheme is

 

1♠-2♦: shows 6+ hearts 9+, 5+ hearts 10-12 or 5+ hearts GF

Then 2♥: 0-2 hearts 10-14

2♠: natural

2NT: 3+ support 14-16, then 3♣ asks shape

 

This is probably a good starting point. A link to their cc is below if you want to see other parts of their methods...

http://www.ecatsbridge.com/documents/files...nlon-mcgann.pdf

This doesn't seem workable to me. If 1S-2D can show 10 points and a 5 card suit and a 2H rebid can be 0-2 hearts, then they are either committed to playing a non-fitting 2H or 2N with say 21 hcps between them. Maybe they can only show 5 card suits when they have spade tolerance? So then 1S-2D, 2H-2S=nf? Still seems like they're bidding too much too fast.

[Free]

Lovely to see many 1♠-2♦ structures, but when will we see a decent 1♠-2♥ structure? It's possible to have a decent structure afer the natural 2♥ response, so 1 extra step just gives you a huge amount of possibilities and it's easy to find something that works a little better than natural. The biggest problem is 1♠-2♥ showing ♦. Try to solve this first, and look for the rest later!

[Fluffy]

you obviously go for it all then, 2♥ shows 3+ spades with whatever low range to whatever big range. 1♠-2♠ is the bid that shows diamonds, you can even differentiate 2 diamond bids: 1♠-2♠ or 1♠-2NT :rolleyes:

[gwnn]

I think some people play that

 

1S-2C is:

-GF bal

-GF clubs

-GF diams

-God only knows what else

 

In practice there is relatively few people playing 2D as hearts so I couldn't say which is more common, the 'switch' or the '2C is so low we can squeeze in everything in there I hope'.

[straube]

Our current responses are...

 

2C-GF relay, balanced hands with only 5 hearts should also relay

2D-GI 6 hearts or GF 5 hearts not balanced

2H-LR (for us 11-13 if three-cd support)

2S-CR (for us 8-10)

2N-Jacoby raise

3C-club preempt

3D-mixed raise

3H-GI 3S/6H

3S-weak raise

[Zelandakh]

This doesn't seem workable to me. If 1S-2D can show 10 points and a 5 card suit and a 2H rebid can be 0-2 hearts, then they are either committed to playing a non-fitting 2H or 2N with say 21 hcps between them. Maybe they can only show 5 card suits when they have spade tolerance? So then 1S-2D, 2H-2S=nf? Still seems like they're bidding too much too fast.

I do not have more details but I would imagine that you can pass 2H with a 6-card suit but that with 5 hearts and 10-12 you bid 2S or 2NT having showing your suit along the way. Then the GF hands are shown at the 3 level in exactly the same way as the natural auction 1S - 2H - 2S but with a slightly tighter strength certainty. Why would this be too much - it is precisely the same as the auction quoted above but with additional options and, most importantly, freeing up the 2H bid to use as a cheap raise.

 

Just to throw you something completely different since I believe from your other discussions that you use limited openings within a relay system. You might like to play around with my structure...

 

1S opening

1N = inv+ relay

2C = 6-9, 4+ clubs

2D = 6-9, 4+ diamonds, usually 0-3 clubs

2H = 6-9, 5+ hearts, usually 0-3 in both minors

2S = 6-9 raise

2N and up = various 4-card raises

 

1S - 1N

2C = any min without 4 hearts

2D = 4 hearts

2H = 4+ clubs, GF

2S = 6+ spades, 1 suited, GF

2N and up = 4+ diamonds, GF

 

1S - 1N - 2C

2D = GF relay

2H = 5+ hearts, invitational

2S = 3 card limit raise

2N = invitational

3m = 6+ suit, invitational

 

1S - 1N - 2D

2H = GF relay

2S = 3 card limit raise

2N = invitational

3m = 6+ suit, invitational

3H = 4+ hearts, invitational

 

Of course this might not work within your relay system since it starts a level higher. In compensation you have more narrowly defined opener's range which makes judging the relays simpler and saves 1 or 2 steps later on. You have also removed all of the hands with both majors. Finally, it may look strange to bid a 4 card club suit before a 5 card heart suit but testing has shown this approach to be better. On the auctions where opener has extras to explore game the fit will come to light. When opener is minimum the ability to stop quickly in a low level 7 or 8 card fit is handy.

[straube]

Hm. I still think they get too high to fast. Are they using unlimited openings? We have to be very careful because opener is 10-15 and it's best to avoid 2N without 23 hcps or so.

 

I think RobF has worked out a structure similar to yours. You might compare with him.

 

One practical difficulty is that I don't think 1N can be used as GI+ in the ACBL. Or if it can, then I think there's a legal problem with a relay system that doesn't promise GF values (and I'm assuming Midchart).

 

I get the basic idea of how 1S-2C might work, but it still seems wrong to me. I like 1N as semiforcing here. Sometimes we get to stop in 1N. More important is that opener doesn't take another bid without a reason...so his rebids take on more meaning. The other thing is that responder already knows 5 of opener's cards and it seems incorrect to start showing opener 4 of responder's cards. Why not let opener continue to show the rest of his shape? to the extent that his strength allows? In effect, we have 1N as a weaker (nf) relay and 2C as a GF relay.

 

I'd hate to be playing in a 4-3 club fit when we should be in a 5-2 spade fit. Etc. And I suppose you can't have constructive raises (1S-2S) like you can if 1N is semiforcing and can conceal a weaker raise.

 

But you've tested it and I haven't so I might be missing something.

[rbforster]

Zelandakh - interesting structure

 

I think RobF has worked out a structure similar to yours.  You might compare with him.

My major non-raise structure is pretty boring right now, but that's mostly the ACBL's fault for forbidding most innovation on those sequences. I've tried a few things (like 2/1 weak, or 1N and 2C as F1 including all GF hands), but I can't say I'm particularly happy about those. Right now I play 2/1 with lots of special jump raises.

 

One practical difficulty is that I don't think 1N can be used as GI+ in the ACBL.  Or if it can, then I think there's a legal problem with a relay system that doesn't promise GF values (and I'm assuming Midchart).

1M-1N(f) is restricted to Midchart+ if it guarantees inv or better values. This is mildly annoying, but can sometimes be handled by putting in one or two rare weak hands. Here are a few variations:

 

1M-?

1N GF relay

2C "forcing NT" hands with 3+ clubs (could be inv with clubs); opener passes if he would have rebid 2C

2D 5+ inv

2H 5+ inv

P less than an invite and unwilling to bid 2C

 

or you can go with the 1N inv+ and throw in a few weak hands (which of course makes the relay structure a little worse/more natural. For example, if you play something more natural for opener's rebid:

 

1M-1N-?

2C any min

2DH 4+

2M 5+

3C 5+

 

and now let responder pass or correct to 2M with certain weak hands like long clubs. This makes responder's 2M rebid into a weak hand instead of the 3 card limit raise from Zelandakh's structure, which is obviously worse but maybe not too bad given there are so many low-level forcing sequences.

 

or finally, you can play something kinda like Gazelli where 2C has all the strong hands instead of all the weak ones:

 

1S-1N

2C any max, or 4+ hearts min (now 2D is relay, 2H or 2S pref's)

2D 4+ min

2H 4+ clubs min

2S 6+ min

 

(over 1H-1N you can do something similar, but play 2C as max or clubs rather than max or hearts).

[Zelandakh]

Hanlon-Mcgann play Swedish Club (1C = 11-13 bal or 17+ any) so yes, their opening bids are limited.

 

I do not live in America so the ACBL regs do not affect me. If I was working under those restrictions then I would probably settle for 2/1 and Forcing 1NT too. Including weak hands into 1NT would not work since the relay sequences are already at maximum capacity.

 

The pros and cons of a forcing versus semi-forcing 1NT response go back and forth. My opening 1S bid cannot be 5332 so semi-forcing makes less sense than when this is possible. The reason why it is useful for Responder to also describe shape is that on less than GF auctions Opener cannot get enough information across always to be guaranteed of a good spot. This is essentially the methodology behind my scheme.

 

Playing in a 4-3 club fit rather than a 5-2 spade fit is not a big deal at imps but huge in Pairs. At imps it can even be an advantage if the opps are cautious about coming in and wait too long. Naturally you have to adapt these non-forcing sequences to MP scoring and prefer any sort of major fit. It is not like the opps will let you play that 4-3 fit in 2m anyway most of the time, and getting your suits out quickly in what is usually going to be a part-score battle can be very advantageous.

[straube]

I still don't like 1S-2D, 2S weak with six spades. The trouble is that it takes up so much room. It also means that 1S-2D, 2N can conceal six or even seven spades.

 

How about....

 

1S-2D, 2H-any minimum not fitting hearts

1S-2D, 2S-any maximum not fitting hearts or possessing a sixth spade

1S-2D, 2N-any maximum with a sixth spade

 

This leaves

 

1S-2D, 2S-2N as a temporizing bid which allows for finding 4-4 minor suit fits, etc.

 

 

I suppose we might need 1S-2D, 3S as minimum with a very good suit