A really simple bidding problem

[Fluffy]

Just saw this. I think 1H = 10, x = 7 and everything else = 0. I really don't understand a 2C bid or a 2NT bid at all.

2NT focuses on our 2 most likelly fits and preempts the opponents at the same time, not the best constructive method, but I though at least you would see the destructive benefits.

[the hog]

Just saw this. I think 1H = 10, x = 7 and everything else = 0. I really don't understand a 2C bid or a 2NT bid at all.

2NT focuses on our 2 most likelly fits and preempts the opponents at the same time, not the best constructive method, but I though at least you would see the destructive benefits.

I take the point, but the poor H suit is just too much. Look at the disparity in the black suits and your hearts, Fluffy.

 

By the way, been thinking about this and I now believe x should be demoted to 4, not 6 as I originally said. It is a poor call and I would be disappointed if my partner found it at the table. He was far better than that!

[bid_em_up]

2♣=10

1♥=9

X=7

2N=2

Pass=0

Arrrrgggggghhhhhh.

[skjaeran]

1♥ is obvious to me.

Double is not an option to me - I'll never be able to descirve my hand afterwards, 2♣ neither. And I'd never bid 2NT with these spades in hand....

[Phil]

2♣=10

1♥=9

X=7

2N=2

Pass=0

Assigning scores to a problem does not lend any legitimacy to an answer.

[bid_em_up]

2♣=10

1♥=9

X=7

2N=2

Pass=0

Assigning scores to a problem does not lend any legitimacy to an answer.

wtf?

 

Even if you think the scoring/ranking is incorrect (and I'll agree that it is, imo), it's simply one person's way of showing how they would evaluate each bid.

 

Not sure why you would make this comment, unless you want the reasoning for each score assignment provided as well.

[Little Kid]

1♥, wouldn't really want to bid anything else.

[jdonn]

Btw I sometimes put down Mike Lawrences books on overcalls and balancing as too old and out of date. But his page and a half section in Overcalls about why it's right to overcall 1♥ over 1m on some hand like x 65432 AQxx AKx had a huge influence on me and I still remember it clearly. His points are accurate and I believe tons of bridge players could improve their defensive bidding a lot simply by reading that one small section of that book.

[blackshoe]

Max Hardy thought it was important enough to reprint in his last two book series on 2/1.

[nige1]

IMPS East/Both ♠ AKx ♥ 9xxxx ♦- ♣ KQJxx

(1♦) ??

The poll is really a test to see whether this is a suitable problem for a magazine.

Carsharp's problem is hard but IMO ...

• _X = 10. Treating the hand as if it were 3415.
  
• 2♣ = 9. Intending to double or bid ♥ next.
  
• 2N = 8. Overemphasising ♥ and
  Risking the loss of a ♠ fit unless you are prepared to bid 3♠ later ;)
  
• 1♥ = 7. Exaggerating ♥ quality, directing the wrong lead, and making next round action difficult.
  

Edited October 11, 2010 by nige1

[nige1]

2♣=10 1♥=9 X=7 2N=2 Pass=0

Assigning scores to a problem does not lend any legitimacy to an answer.

wtf?

Even if you think the scoring/ranking is incorrect (and I'll agree that it is, imo), it's simply one person's way of showing how they would evaluate each bid. Not sure why you would make this comment, unless you want the reasoning for each score assignment provided as well.

I agree with Bid-em-up. Assigning marks to calls gives a rough indication of how close decisions are. For instance, a player often knows that he made an unfashionable call. He polls to find out ...

• What other calls players deem worth consideration and
  
• How badly they rate his actual choice. :)
  

Replies like "3N. No second choice. wtp?" seem unhelpful ;)

Bidding has improved over the years but fashion is fickle. For example

• In the UK, in the early days, a double of 1N was for takeout but Reese, Mollo et al laughed at this, so the fashion changed to penalty. Now takeout doubles are back a la mode.
  
• The bridge-international and number-theorist, Swinnerton-Dyer was a maverick panellist in the Bridge Magazine Bidding Poll, decades ahead of his time. Nowadays, his efforts would be unremarkable and he would score much better in a modern poll.
  

[rhm]

Just saw this. I think 1H = 10, x = 7 and everything else = 0. I really don't understand a 2C bid or a 2NT bid at all.

2NT focuses on our 2 most likelly fits and preempts the opponents at the same time, not the best constructive method, but I though at least you would see the destructive benefits.

I take the point, but the poor H suit is just too much. Look at the disparity in the black suits and your hearts, Fluffy.

 

By the way, been thinking about this and I now believe x should be demoted to 4, not 6 as I originally said. It is a poor call and I would be disappointed if my partner found it at the table. He was far better than that!

I, as almost anybody else, overcall with 3-5 in the majors, but...

 

I wonder how you feel when you overcall 1♥ and LHO jump raises ♦.

Is this unexpected??. Anything but DBL is likely to loose the ♠ for good.

I expect ♦ to get raised, perhaps vigorously and I feel more comfortable with DBL, one reason is because I am not that keen to get raised on 3 cards in ♥. (Though that could work out if you get lucky.)

The 1♥ overcall is a great bid if LHO will pass. Fat chance!

 

Rainer Herrmann

[paulg]

On the actual hand you have a 9-card heart fit that will probably get lost if you overcall 2♣, but that was largely irrelevant for the problem itself.

 

Thanks all

 

Paul

[Free]

Btw I sometimes put down Mike Lawrences books on overcalls and balancing as too old and out of date. But his page and a half section in Overcalls about why it's right to overcall 1♥ over 1m on some hand like x 65432 AQxx AKx had a huge influence on me and I still remember it clearly. His points are accurate and I believe tons of bridge players could improve their defensive bidding a lot simply by reading that one small section of that book.

I found the section online (Look Inside pages 15-20) and it's indeed convincing. Thanks!

[bid_em_up]

To me, X is best, it keeps all options in play. If partner can bid hearts, we can practically drive to game, it keeps both spades and clubs in the picture, and yes, even a penalty pass by partner. It's not like we don't have decent defensive prospects. This is the best of all worlds, imo.

 

2♣ offers our best suit, and the suit we want led, but likely loses both the heart and spade suits.

 

2N at least puts both our suits in play, but will lose the spade suit. Partner is also liable to choose 3H on three weak hearts (over three bad clubs), and it will probably fare poorly.

 

1♥ is awful (imo). We do not want a heart led. Hearts are unlikely to play well unless partner has four hearts (which double will find out anyway), or three good ones. Imagine partner raising on Qxx. We're likely to be tapped immediately @ trick one, and will be hard pressed to draw trumps without losing control of the hand.

 

I've looked at the info by Lawrence on bad suit overcalls. I didn't see a single example where X or another good 5 card suit is available as an alternative. Most all examples entailed something like (1♣)-1♥ on xx 98742 AKx AQx where you can't make a takeout double.

 

jmoo.

[Zelandakh]

2♣ offers our best suit, and the suit we want led, but likely loses both the heart and spade suits.

Why would we lose the spade suit? Surely if partner has a decent hand and 5 spades they will bid them. And even if partner cannot bid we are well placed to double diamonds next time round if they have not barraged us out - and if they have then none of the other options will likely have fared any better. Both double and 2C involve treating the heart suit as Hxxx in effect - losing a 5-3 heart fit is not a big deal imho, and we should not miss a 5-4 fit on good hands. (you might guess from this that I voted for the unpopular choice from the main 3 options of 2C).

 

I think this is a good problem and all of these 3 options have pros and cons and would likely have adherrents - I think it comes more down to style than any one being the best.

[bid_em_up]

fwiw,

 

I used to play againt Mike Lawrence on another (now defunct) bridge site. A partner of mine on that site local club had hired him to come and teach classes a couple of times and he would frequently join us for some casual games. I took the liberty of sending him the hand in question. My email to him and his response follows:

 

Hi Mike, I am bid_em_up from Bridge Base Online and I was (user id) on (now defunct bridge site) and a regular partner of (user ID) there. There is currently a discussion on BridgeBase forums regarding the following hand:

 

Both Vul

Imp Scoring

East deals and opens 1D, and you hold

 

AKx 9xxxx void KQJxx

 

I'd like your input on what you would bid here, at both IMP's and MP. The reason I'd like your input is that several people are referring to your book on overcalls (with regards to bad suit overcalls) and are advocating that its ok to bid 1H here. My opinion on what I have read in your book is that its ok to do it, but from what I can tell, it is only intended if no better choice is available.

 

I wanted to see if you would be willing to share your thoughts on double, one heart, two clubs, 2N (unusual) or any other choice of calls, which call you would choose, and whether or not the form of scoring (IMP vs. MP) would make a difference in your choice of calls.

 

Also, if you choose to answer this, do I have your permission to share your response with others on the forums?

 

Thanks in advance,

 

bid_em_up from BBO

[bid_em_up]

Here is his response:

 

Hi xxxx,

 

Feel free to use my comments.

 

The problem with this hand is that you actually are close to having three suits.

 

My choice, and I am not prepared to go to war over this, is to bid 2NT. At least I get two suits in. In the back of my mind is the thought that I might double something later to show this hand but in fact, bidding 2NT and later doubling merely shows a strong hand but still only 5-5 or better. No promise of three spades in implied.

 

Really, all choices are flawed so you can waste a lot of time debating.

 

Here are my specific objections to each possible call.

 

Pass Not possible.

 

1♥ Possible with this suit but not with this hand. There is a fair chance that your LHO will find a way to bid notrump and you do not like a heart lead. Also, if you bid a heart and Lho raises to 3♦, for example, you won't be sure about bidding 4♣ now. You might double 3♦ but it has flaws of its own.

 

2♣ Out of the question for me. You give up on hearts. This hand is good enough that you can hope for something your way. Bidding 2♣ is a tactical bid that you might make with an assortment of other hands, none of them looking like this one.

 

The form of scoring is not important. You have hopes so should try to find the best way to get to the best spot.

 

One thing about 2NT. You need methods for responder to show good hands, invitational hands, etc. I have nothing to offer on this but obviously, knowing what partner will do is important.

 

Let me know if my answers help.

 

Mike Lawrence

[Fluffy]

wow, mike didn't even consider double I mean, he considered 2♣ but not double?

[bid_em_up]

wow, mike didn't even consider double I mean, he considered 2♣ but not double?

I suspect he just overlooked it. I sent the email during the middle of the vugraph yesterday. I've sent him another email inquiring whether this was deliberate and if so, why.