third seat

[straube]

third seat, V vs NV, playing limited openings and 1C=16+

 

What's your bid with KJ9765 T3 K5 864?

 

P? 1S? 2S?

 

Second question...what does P P 1S P 1N P 2S show? A hand too weak to open 2S or a hand to strong to open 2S? Can partner raise?

[nigel_k]

If I open in third seat and then bid again then I have a full opening bid always. Otherwise it's just too hard. Partner can raise a 2♠ rebid.

 

So on the given hand I would either open 2♠ or pass. I prefer 2♠ though obviously it's risky.

[akhare]

To complete the context, first hand would have opened most shapely 10 counts and most 11 balanced counts.

 

Do we really expect the auction to go P - (P) - 1♠ - (P) - 1N - (P) - 2♠ - (P) when the opps likely hold 23+ HCPs in between them?

[the hog]

third seat, V vs NV, playing limited openings and 1C=16+

 

What's your bid with KJ9765 T3 K5 864?

 

P? 1S? 2S?

 

Second question...what does P P 1S P 1N P 2S show? A hand too weak to open 2S or a hand to strong to open 2S? Can partner raise?

I agree with Nigel, however unless you are playing Caspar Milquetoast and friends this won't be the bidding. See Atul's post.

[aguahombre]

I prefer 2♠ though obviously it's risky.

At the table, 2S would be one of those WTP bids. Policy. Passing or bidding 1S would be taking a position I can't justify.

[rogerclee]

I enjoy playing a style where I can open 1S with this, but it's not for everyone. If my only options were 2S or pass I would pass, this is just not a r/w 2S opener at any form of scoring.

[straube]

Thanks for the replies thus far. I would vote for 2S. 1S would be my last choice.

 

With a club of 16+ unbalanced or 17 (really for us 18 in third seat) balanced, responder would normally make a GF with most 8 hcps. Even considering that we open light (generally following the BC rule of 19), responder may have passed plenty of 9 and 10 point hands.

 

In third seat, it's common to preempt 2S with a wider range of hcps and spade length. Even preemption of marginal opening hands can be a successful tactic.

In third seat, opener may have many hands of say a good 12-15 pts with 6 spades that he wants to bid constructively which fail to meet the requirements of a 1C opening. The way to show those hands is to open 1S and rebid 2S. This rebid is more constructive in the third chair than it would be for the first or second. The message is "I could have just preempted this hand but it was just too good to do so."

 

Bidding in this fashion hopes to attract a raise from partner. He may have something like Qx xx Axxx Axxxx which arguably should just bid 4S. Or he may have something like xx AJx Axxx xxxx which probably should just invite. The point I'm making is that there are hands (even if one argues against my examples) that should be investigating game with a good 12-15 opposite 9-10.

 

In any case, opening 1S and hearing partner bid 1N means that systemically one would have to pass this hand and hope that the opponents bid something...because 1N stands to score poorly but rebidding 2S systemically shows a much better hand and might attract a raise.

 

The General Convention Chart states under Disallowed...

 

"6. Opening one bids which by partnership agreement could show less than 8 HCP. (Not applicable to a psyche.)"

 

Most people will open light third seat and I've never heard that a pre-alert was required for doing so. But the GCC doesn't make an exception for third seat as far as 8 pts are concerned. This hand has 7 hcps and thus only qualifies as a lawful opening as a psyche.

 

Psyching in a regular partnership is not a great idea because 1) it undermines partner confidence 2) partner may start to recognize or give leeway for psyches and 3) the opponents may correctly or not suspect that the partnership has hidden understandings.

 

If one has a partnership understanding that this bid is a good bid to make when vulnerable, then it seems that the opponents would be entitled to that information.

 

Can one alert a psyche situation? I don't know the legalities, but I actually used to do that. I used to play with someone who jumped to 3N whenever he had a big fit for me and a bad hand...a contract he was willing to play undoubled. Once I learned of this tendency I started alerting the opponents...which robbed it of its power.

 

I'd hate to feel like saying "Well, at this vulnerability partner could have a hand with six spades that is just too pathetic to open at the 2-level and he might not have enough points to open except as a psyche...."

[rduran1216]

I can't imagine anyone would open this 1S

[CSGibson]

3rd seat I'd open it 1♠.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

2S.

 

Personnally I dont open light in 3rd seat, I understand the reason, but

I just dont do it.

 

With the given hand, I have a bid that describes the hand fairly well, so

I will choose this, being red vs. green gets countered by the position.

 

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[Free]

If my system allows it I'll open 1♠, otherwise 2♠.

[hanp]

Ditto Rogerclee.

[655321]

Read all the replies (except one) and agree with rogerclee too.

[Phil]

Pass. I'm curious how Roger can play a style that allows a 1 bid with this.

 

I think 2♠ is begging for -200.

[pooltuna]

1) MP=2♠; IMPS=pass

2) a hand too strong to open 2S. Partner can raise!

[straube]

Here's Hamman's and Zia's card...

 

http://www.clairebridge.com/textes/convent...man-mahmood.pdf

 

So at favorable the open very light in 3rd seat. They also have alerted their opponents because it's printed on their card.

 

This problem concerns unfavorable vulnerability.

 

I'm starting to agree with those that pass this hand. I've also noticed that many who vote for 1S don't answer whether they would rebid 2S over partner's 1N.

[akhare]

I'm starting to agree with those that pass this hand.  I've also noticed that many who vote for 1S don't answer whether they would rebid 2S over partner's 1N.

Probably because the odds of an uncontested 1♠ - 1N auction are close to 0 -- I bet even the BBO bots will find something to bid over the 1♠ opening :lol:.

 

To me, a 2♠ opening throws caution to the wind and always passing with this hand is way too conservative. Given the very low frequency of such hands (6 card suit, vulnerability, third seat, point range), I don't see why opening (psyching if you will) 1♠ can hurt us too much (Edit: in the context of a limited opening system where pard had complete license to open with very light hands in the first and second seats.).

 

 

If pard routinely opened at the 1 level in the third seat with sub-par junk hands, I would be much more concerned about disclosing the methods to the opponents...

[hanp]

I would pass after p - p - 1S - p - 1NT.

[gwnn]

Clear 1S, my partners know about how many hcp they can expect from my 3rd openers. next please

[OleBerg]

I prefer 2♠ though obviously it's risky.

At the table, 2S would be one of those WTP bids. Policy. Passing or bidding 1S would be taking a position I can't justify.

Agree 100%.

[whereagles]

third seat, V vs NV, playing limited openings and 1C=16+

 

What's your bid with KJ9765 T3 K5 864?

 

P? 1S? 2S?

 

Second question...what does P P 1S P 1N P 2S show?  A hand too weak to open 2S or a hand to strong to open 2S?  Can partner raise?

1. Open 2♠ wtp?

 

2. I'd say a normal opening with bad, long suit. I.e. jack 6th or thereabouts.

[kayin801]

This is something I'd switch up based on my opponents between 1♠ (in a good game) and 2♠ (in a club game), never ever ever ever ever ever pass please.

[wank]

i think bidding is way too dangerous here, much though i approve of opening light in 3rd in general.

 

if lho has a decent balanced hand with a few spades, they can catch you quite easily.

 

1s - p - 1nt - x (take-out)

 

or

 

1s - p - 1nt - p - p - x (penalties with a spade holding)

 

are perfectly simple auctions if LHO is too weak for a direct 1NT.

 

if LHO is strong enough for a direct 1NT overcall you might have the joy of partner doubling 1NT and RHO flying the blue flag.

 

either way, i wouldn't want to be digging for an escape route at the 2 level at red. you can easily be going for 5 or 8 when the opps don't have the strength to bid game on their own.

[mikegill]

I would not open 1♠ playing standard. 1♠ - p 1NT is way too likely and will make me want to vomit. I would happily open 1♠ playing precision, since partner will know not to bid 1NT on cheese opposite a 3rd seat opener. This is right on the border for me for a 2♠ opening in 3rd. I think I would bid at MPs and pass at IMPs.

 

IMPs I hate risking a huge minus (even though it's unlikely), but also here even if they don't double me they might get 200 or 300 when they didn't have anything making. Also some of my MP wins are now small wins or not wins at all. At MPs I might go

-200 but it's by no means a certainty and there are a lot of ways to win the board by opening (go -100 against their 120/110 if we pass, they misjudge and bid over us, we're making 2/3 because partner has the right max and it would have passed out, partner makes a better lead, our bid keeps them from getting to the right game/slam...etc).

[MFA]

2♠. Fine for a third seat preempt.