more hand evaluation

[babalu1997]

maybe it is a sign of expertise, and this was not a random partner

but

 

 

we were playing weak nt 12-14

 

i had a nice club opening with a heart suit, about 21 hcp, doubleton ak of diamonds

 

but partner opened 1 diamond ahead of me

 

presuming the 1 diamond open denied a weak no trump, and would be a nice un balanced hand with diamonds, i think i smelled a slam

 

 

so the bidding goes

 

 

1 diamond

1 heart

2 diamonds

2 sapdes-- i need to force now, tho only had 3 cards and would retrun to my 7 haert card

3 diamonds

3 hearts

4diamonds

6 diamonds

 

Give that 4 times rebiddable diamond suit i bid 6 diamonds

 

 

partners hand was:

 

 

spade void

kxx

qjxx

kxxxxx

 

he suffered the indiginity of playing it

i suffered the indignity of opps laughing at me

 

i asked him where are your 12 hcp?

-- 3 points for the spade void

 

where are those 7 diamond trumps?

-- i kept bidding spades to let you know i did not have an opening bid

 

 

(The best way to let me know he does not have an opening bid is to just PASS, PASS)

 

guy been playing 40 years and goren never taught anybody to give 3 points for a void without bidding, and goren would not have opened the abomination.

 

 

PS. No, we are not on speaking terms, i am speechless, and partnerless, more or less

[jonottawa]

I would guess dementia. No need to be mean about it.

[vuroth]

Wow. My sympathies.

[W Kovacs]

Everyone has a bad hand now and again, although this one goes beyond bad and into :o :( :blink:

 

Today I managed to count a king in my hand twice, pushing me into opening, and then later in the bidding ignored my partner's game force (and a good thing I did, too). So things do happen. This one happened to be a little more...egregious.

[Free]

Why didn't he raise ♥ on his 3 card support? B)

[babalu1997]

Why didn't he raise ♥ on his 3 card support?  :blink:

I have no idea.

 

True people misclick or make bad bids all the time, reason i truly stopped playing with him was actually a meta-reason if you will.

 

If someone decides to play weak opening systems so that responder needs a 17 pointer to force to game, they are welcome to do so, but I would not be interested.

 

There are families of hands for which these systems work, but they are highly dependent on expert card play and expert defense.

 

My level of card play and defense is such that I need those quick tricks and sound hands to score better.

 

But what one should not do is to confuse their methods. Go play strong 1 club and canape so that partner has a better idea of the limits or lack thereof of your holdings.

 

Playing weak no trump, 1 level opens should deny a 12-15balanced hand, and if 4 card majors a required you might want to play crowhurst too.

 

But one cannot have his cake and eat it too, use weak nt, open 10-11 pointers at one level and keep the 2 club opens as 1 trick short of game.

 

In other words, a weak opening system has different parameters for forcing bids and limit bids.

 

I prefer some kind of system where responder has a say on what is going to be played, and he will force as long as he feels like forcing.

 

So on many occasions we miss games or slam because partner panics that he could not see game on the crap he opened.

 

So i gave it up it was no use arguing.

[bucky]

Why didn't he raise ♥ on his 3 card support? :lol:

To keep discouraging partner since he was ashamed of the opening...

 

But why did he choose to open 4-card diamonds instead of 6-card clubs, that is still a mystery... or at least he can bid his 6-bagger at some point of time...

[bucky]

I have no idea.

 

True people misclick or make bad bids all the time, reason i truly stopped playing with him was actually a meta-reason if you will.

Doesn't seem like a misclick, since he deliberately added void points to make it opening strength.

[W Kovacs]

But why did he choose to open 4-card diamonds instead of 6-card clubs, that is still a mystery... or at least he can bid his 6-bagger at some point of time...

OP mentioned he had a club opener with a heart suit, so it sounds like they were playing a strong club system.

 

Now the fact that he never bid his clubs is curious...

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

 

#1 I guess your p has 6 diamonds, 4 clubs, 3hearts, and not

6 clubs, 4 diamonds and 3 hearts

#2 if you happen to open hands, that satisfy the rule of 18-19,

the hand is an opening bid, the hand fells short of the the

rule of 20

nevertheless, you have 9HCP and 2 length points, so it is

borderline, you asked, where are your 12HCP? do you always

pass a hand 5-5 in the majors (suits KQxxx) with 10HCP?

#3 Having agreed to open with the rule of 20, you should stop

at one point in time, partner heard you, but still said no, he may

have a real reason

#4 partner never promised a 7 card diamond suit, at one point in

time he has to find a bid, so he will repeat his suit, no matter

if the suit has add. length or not.

If would have been certainly better to introduce his 2nd suit

(presumed to be clubs) over your 1H response, and at his 3rd

turn he shoud have shown his 3 card heart suit.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[P_Marlowe]

But why did he choose to open 4-card diamonds instead of 6-card clubs, that is still a mystery... or at least he can bid his 6-bagger at some point of time...

OP mentioned he had a club opener with a heart suit, so it sounds like they were playing a strong club system.

 

Now the fact that he never bid his clubs is curious...

Than he would have had a 2C opening.

[P_Marlowe]

<snip>

Playing weak no trump, 1 level opens should deny a 12-15balanced hand,

<snip>

I prefer some kind of system where responder has a say on what is going to be played, and he will force as long as he feels like forcing

<snip>

But you can still have a unbal. hand with 12-15, and most would open

 

AKQxxx

Qxxx

xx

x

 

with 1S, even peoble, who open conservative, and this is just a hand with

11HCP.

 

Of course the good 6 card suits makes up for the lack of HCP.

 

 

And I prefer a system, where both players listen to each other, if one screams

more than once "Sry p, that I opened", the other partner should hear this scream

and let p out, at least after the 2nd punishing stroke.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[babalu1997]

Hi,

 

#1 I guess your p has 6 diamonds, 4 clubs, 3hearts, and not

6 clubs, 4 diamonds and 3 hearts

#2 if you happen to open hands, that satisfy the rule of 18-19,

the hand is an opening bid, the hand fells short of the the

rule of 20

nevertheless, you have 9HCP and 2 length points, so it is

borderline, you asked, where are your 12HCP? do you always

pass a hand 5-5 in the majors (suits KQxxx) with 10HCP?

#3 Having agreed to open with the rule of 20, you should stop

at one point in time, partner heard you, but still said no, he may

have a real reason

#4 partner never promised a 7 card diamond suit, at one point in

time he has to find a bid, so he will repeat his suit, no matter

if the suit has add. length or not.

If would have been certainly better to introduce his 2nd suit

(presumed to be clubs) over your 1H response, and at his 3rd

turn he shoud have shown his 3 card heart suit.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

he in fact had 4 diamonds

 

as i said, it was not a random partner.

 

--our systems had a variety of ways to open non constructive hands, including multi 2d, 2 sapades and 2nt for 2 suited hands.

 

-- it was specifically spelled out in the systems notes that all construcitve openers have at least 2 quick tricks-- rule of 15,18,19,20 were in fact strictly prohibited

 

-- his 2 diamond rebid had a meaning, so did 3 diamonds

 

i felt lied to, and boom, the partnership was gone because, if in fact he decided to go around making gross deviations on the system agreed to, the partnership would be no more.

 

i can find hundreds evryday to play vanilla SA in the main bridge club, but if I agree to play a system and invest my time in postmortems or system notes, so will the partner do.

 

this weak 2 people left me messages at bbo who wanted to play weak no trump.

 

One guy proposed minitrump, I dont like it, I thanked him, turned him down.

 

Another said weak nt IS 13-15, Ii thanked him, turned him down.

 

And perhaps the guy did want to end the partnership and knew he could achieve it by doing the above.

 

whne all is said and done, i want to play a system when i am one trick short of game, i want a game bid, i dont want to be controled by partner with undescript hand with horrible texture.