balanced slam hands after 1N

[straube]

We're using 1N-2S as a size ask and opener rebids 2N minimum or 3C maximum. Responder's rebid of 3H announces a balanced hand that is slamming.

 

How do we proceed?

 

We can relay opener's hand patterns. He can have

any 5422 12

any 6m322 6

any 5332 12

any 4432 12

any 4333 4

 

for a total of 46 patterns.

 

By 4N, opener has 7 steps so 1,2,3,5,8,13,21. He can show 21 of those 46 patterns.

 

Obviously we're getting high fairly quick.

 

Should we not relay? Relay certain shapes and just bid suits up the line for others?

[Zelandakh]

Have you considered using Baron 2S or some modification thereof? In this convention Opener, with a max, bids their lowest 4 card suit. After 2NT Responder will also bid 4 card suits up the line with a slam hand. If this is not possible, for example because you are using the 2S bid for something else (I seem to recall something in your splinter post) then you might use 3H to show clubs and 3S to show diamonds. Relays for Opener to describe may not be the best way to go here since Responder's shape will most likely be fairly limited too (quite possibly even more limited than Opener).

[Free]

I use 1NT-2♠-...-3♦ as a control ask, usually with a balanced hand. Now opener gives his number of controls (starting at 3 for strong NT, starting at 2 for weak NT) and we continue with natural bidding. Since both hands are balanced, you can easily rebid a 5 card suit to find 5-3 fits. This hasn't caused any problems so far, and you know below 3NT if slam will be possible or not because of the missing controls. If slam is possible, then you have 2 entire levels to find a fit, more than enough.

[Fluffy]

you are both balanced forget about 3-2s, and 6s

 

opener has

 

1 suiters

 

5xxx or 6xxx (4)

 

4333 (1)

 

44xx (6)

 

5422 (6), note that 5 card cannot be a major

 

for a total of 17

 

you can have a realy to ask about the short suits (or the 4333) over 4NT if you wish.

[Fluffy]

for a simple structure:

 

3♠ = I have 4 hearts

3NT = I have 4 spades

4♣ = I have 5 or 6 clubs

4♦ = I have 5 or 6 diamonds

 

4♥ = I have neither

 

 

what to bid with 4252 I am not sure yet

[straube]

I use 1NT-2♠-...-3♦ as a control ask, usually with a balanced hand. Now opener gives his number of controls (starting at 3 for strong NT, starting at 2 for weak NT) and we continue with natural bidding. Since both hands are balanced, you can easily rebid a 5 card suit to find 5-3 fits. This hasn't caused any problems so far, and you know below 3NT if slam will be possible or not because of the missing controls. If slam is possible, then you have 2 entire levels to find a fit, more than enough.

I'm stuck with 3H (as opposed to 3D) as an ask, but I suppose we could do the same sort of thing.

 

3S-3 controls

3N-4 controls

4C-5 controls

4D-6 controls

4H-7 controls and zooming?

 

Is that how you do it for your strong NT? (ours is 14-16)

 

Never really used controls, but I suppose two balanced hands want to have no fewer than 10 controls between them.

 

Presuming enough controls...responder could relay shape until fit is discovered (or not). I suppose we'd be in an almost forced slam auction.

 

Say opener shows 6 controls (4D) and I ask with 4H. He'll have 8 steps up to including 6C.

 

1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 hand patterns. So can't quite guarantee 6C will be available, but that's only for the worst number of controls. And I suppose we could organize the pattern relay such that we wouldn't want to be playing 6C anyway when opener relays past 6C.

 

A bunch of good suggestions so far. Thanks

[straube]

you are both balanced forget about 3-2s, and 6s

 

opener has

 

1 suiters

 

5xxx or 6xxx (4)

 

4333 (1)

 

44xx (6)

 

5422 (6), note that 5 card cannot be a major

 

for a total of 17

 

you can have a realy to ask about the short suits (or the 4333) over 4NT if you wish.

Most of our 5M422s we open in the major, but we like the freedom to open 1N. For instance if I have Kxxxx AQ Kxxx Kx that looks pretty notrumpish to me.

 

I think the 32s and all are important because responder may have semibalanced hands and he could have a 5332 hand that plays better in his suit (score a ruff in opener's hand, maintain control, etc).

[straube]

Say opener starts to relay his pattern at 4S up

 

1. all 4432s or 4522s with 5cd lower ranking

.....18 hand types requiring 7 steps ends at 5N

 

2. all 5332s

.....12 hand types requiring 6 steps ends at 5N

 

3. all 6m322s

.....6 hand types requiring 5 steps ends at 5N

 

4. all 4333s

.....4 hand types requiring 4 steps ends at 5N

 

5. all 5422s with 5 higher ranking

.....6 hand types requiring 5 steps ends at 6D

[ONEferBRID]

I received this from a wonderful European lady back in 2004:

 

1NT ( no 5 card Major) - 2S! = distribution ask ( GF )

 

1 NT.........................2S! ( asks for distr.) GAME FORCE

2NT =exact 4.3.3.3 ...3C! ( asks what is your 4 crd

......................................if you still are interested))))))

3D/3H/3S = 4crd ...... 3NT to play

3NT=4crd cl.

 

 

further the convention:

 

1 NT...........................2S! ( distr.asking)

3C (4crd + 1 higher).... 3D! (what is second 4crd?)

3H/3S = 4 crd

3NT=4dia

 

1NT............................ 2S! ( asks distr.)

3D =4crd + 1 major...... 3H! ( asks second 4crd?)

3S = 4crd.

3NT= 4crd hts.

 

1NT...............................2S! (asks distr.)

3H = 4/4 major

 

1NT...............................2S!

3S = 5crd cl

3NT = 5crd dia.

 

 

use the direct 2NT response for minors weak

P is obliged to >> bid 3C ( pass or correct by responder )

1NT - 2NT! ( relay to 3C for pass or correct to 3D )

 

1NT - 2C

2Any - 2NT! ( invite... may or may not have 4cd Major )

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Thus, Stayman auctions are non-forcing:

 

1NT - 2C

2D - ??

...............pass trash

...............2H/2S trash

...............3C non-forcing

 

1NT - 2C

2H - ??

...............pass

...............2S = 4s/ 5 minor

Pass

or 2NT - 3C/3D non-forcing

 

With 4cds Sp and long minor:

1NT - 2C

2D - pass or 3C , NF

[Siegmund]

Just as a random tidbit...

 

If you choose to relay out opener's full shape -- the obvious approach, to me, would be to designate one rebid after Stayman as a relay (I am guessing 3C is most easily spared), and take advantage of SOME information exchange at the 2-level. The 2S immediate response can be used instead to plug whatever you lose from your Stayman structure (presumably longer clubs and a 4-card major, if 1NT-2C-2X-3C is the sequence you give up.)

 

Is there some reason nobody seems to be doing that? (For those of you who still play off-the-shelf Stayman, not the NF variation in onefer's last post.)

[Free]

I use 1NT-2♠-...-3♦ as a control ask, usually with a balanced hand.  Now opener gives his number of controls (starting at 3 for strong NT, starting at 2 for weak NT) and we continue with natural bidding.  Since both hands are balanced, you can easily rebid a 5 card suit to find 5-3 fits.  This hasn't caused any problems so far, and you know below 3NT if slam will be possible or not because of the missing controls.  If slam is possible, then you have 2 entire levels to find a fit, more than enough.

I'm stuck with 3H (as opposed to 3D) as an ask, but I suppose we could do the same sort of thing.

 

3S-3 controls

3N-4 controls

4C-5 controls

4D-6 controls

4H-7 controls and zooming?

 

Is that how you do it for your strong NT? (ours is 14-16)

 

Never really used controls, but I suppose two balanced hands want to have no fewer than 10 controls between them.

 

Presuming enough controls...responder could relay shape until fit is discovered (or not). I suppose we'd be in an almost forced slam auction.

 

Say opener shows 6 controls (4D) and I ask with 4H. He'll have 8 steps up to including 6C.

 

1 2 3 5 8 13 21 34 hand patterns. So can't quite guarantee 6C will be available, but that's only for the worst number of controls. And I suppose we could organize the pattern relay such that we wouldn't want to be playing 6C anyway when opener relays past 6C.

 

A bunch of good suggestions so far. Thanks

We use the first step as 3-4 controls, and the rest is 1 more for each step. So

3♥ = 3-4

3♠ = 5

3NT = 6

...

We continue to bid natural for simplicity and flexibility. There are some rules, like the opener may never go to the next level for example. For a complete writeup, you can look at a writeup of HEEMAN on the Jack site, and look for CONFIT.

 

With 2 balanced hands, you're usually looking for a 4-4 or a 5-3 fit, you're not looking for a 6-2 fit for example. By bidding suits up the line, you can achieve just that. Example: 4432 vs 3352:

... - 3♠ (5 controls)

4♦ - 4♥ (4+♦ ; 4+♥)

5♦ - 6♦ (5+♦ ; 3♦)

 

It's easy, and might even hide information from the eventual declarer. Perhaps you may lose a 4-4 Major fit if you already found a 4-4 minor fit. But you can still find it most of the time (if not always - it hasn't come up), for example 2443 vs 3442:

... - 3♠ (5 controls)

4♦ - 5♦ (4+♦ ; 4+♦ - support has highest priority)

5♥ - 6♥ (4♥ looking for an alternative slam ; 4♥)

 

Since it's simple and it works, I wouldn't invest too much time in learning a relay scheme and finding some way to signoff and reach the best slam every time. Btw, if you allow some flexibility then opener with a 4441, 5422 and 6322 need to be described as well in your relay scheme, which means a lot of extra hands. I don't have an issue with that using natural continuations, just keep on bidding the suits. B)

[Free]

Just as a random tidbit...

 

If you choose to relay out opener's full shape -- the obvious approach, to me, would be to designate one rebid after Stayman as a relay (I am guessing 3C is most easily spared), and take advantage of SOME information exchange at the 2-level. The 2S immediate response can be used instead to plug whatever you lose from your Stayman structure (presumably longer clubs and a 4-card major, if 1NT-2C-2X-3C is the sequence you give up.)

 

Is there some reason nobody seems to be doing that? (For those of you who still play off-the-shelf Stayman, not the NF variation in onefer's last post.)

The biggest problem with that approach is that you don't know if partner is min/max by the time you have relayed the exact shape. You're at 3NT with a borderline hand, and might want to know about honour location (because if you have relays you can use them with distributional hands as well).

 

My partner used to insist on playing relays after 1NT openings, but I've convinced him that there are better ways which give our Stayman sequences more options.

[shevek]

If you want to relay, play relay.

Over everything, early and often. You'll soon develop a feel.

Then you'll agonise over a lost step, spend some time ensuring all balanced hands come out by 3D, leaving room to nail down strength & locate honours. That's what the 4 & 5 levels are for.

[Free]

spend some time ensuring all balanced hands come out by 3D

LOL

[glen]

... For a complete writeup, you can look at a writeup of HEEMAN on the Jack site, and look for CONFIT. ...

This may have been previous known as CONFI, and here's a description and examples:

 

http://www.reginabridge.com/conventions/slcon.txt

 

Kokish/Nagy used to play 1NT(weak)-3♠ as CONFI, where most CONFI auctions seem to always start 3♠(Confi)-3NT(Obi-Wan: "These aren't the controls you're looking for"), but some days there's only 9 tricks and some of the field have overreached trying for slam.

[straube]

I love this CONFI idea. We won't be off an AK and don't have to memorize another relay structure. I can see remote chances of losing fits, but oh well.

 

Our NT is 14-16 so probably our S1 should be 3 or less which means we can only stop at 3N if opener has a disappointing 4 controls (our ask is 3H).

 

So 1N-2S, 2N-3H, 4C-4N would be to play. Any other rebid and we're in a slam force, right?

[Valardent]

Hi,

 

I've spend hours (weeks) on this confit structure.

 

Starting with 3D as a control ask as described by Free, I managed to show all shapes at or below 5H except for a few 5mxxx (reserving most 5H finishes to 4333 hands). Aim is to be able to sign off in 5NT, as 5S would be another relay asking for quacks.

 

After the ctrl ask, the classical way for finding fits is not particularly good. Finding a pin point 7, going down in 6 with a 4-4 fit missing KQ or AQ of trumps or not declaring a good 6 with AKxx facing J(10)xxx is something that will happen regardless of your judgment.

 

One way to enhance precision is to forsee 2 ways of bidding :

 

1) One where you are only looking for a decent 6 with good ctrl in case of a 4-4/5-3 fit (typically with 28-32 HCP).

 

Best is to use the classical way for finding fit(s), opener knowing he must hv a max to colaborate.

 

 

2) The second where you are favorite to win 6NT (33+HCP or equivalent)

 

I use 4C after ctrl ask (or relay if answer passes 3NT) as a relay asking shape (based on the 4NT=rape suit), followed by a morphing (depending on point count already showned) scan asking for queens. Jacks on a dcb base if room left.

Some problems arise for hands where you need to know which kings opener has.

Patches like those are more difficult to cope with...

 

This method is superior but not perfect. Hands making a difference are as usual few and far between... but so satisfying to bid them up :D

 

Val

[straube]

I didn't understand that last paragraph. Can you elaborate and give examples?

 

I did a frequency analysis of a few hands for our 14-16 NT.

 

controls....%

3.............7

4.............28

5.............35

6.............25

7.............5

 

I had the thought that one might use either/or responses as for RKC. Our ask starts at 3H.

 

3S-3 or 6

3N-4 or 7

other-5

 

but I think it leaves too much ambiguity. Perhaps if we had room for 3 or 7, 4, 5, 6 . I think you have that room with the extra step.

[Valardent]

I didn't understand that last paragraph. Can you elaborate and give examples?

 

I did a frequency analysis of a few hands for our 14-16 NT.

 

controls....%

3.............7

4.............28

5.............35

6.............25

7.............5

 

I had the thought that one might use either/or responses as for RKC. Our ask starts at 3H.

 

3S-3 or 6

3N-4 or 7

other-5

 

but I think it leaves too much ambiguity. Perhaps if we had room for 3 or 7, 4, 5, 6 . I think you have that room with the extra step.

Hi,

 

7% for 3 ctrl seems low to me.

 

For the 15-17 range on a 3♦ ask, responses are 3♥ : 3 or 4, 3♠ : 5, 3nt:6, 4♣:8, 4♦+ : 7+ zoom shape

 

On 3♥, 3♠ asks :

 

3nt : 3

4x : 4 (zoom shape)

 

Principale aim of this structure is to stop in 3nt when 3 ctrls are missing (slam rates then to be at most 50% with very few exceptions)

 

Your idea is interesting, I wonder if I could use it to safe some space.

3♥: 3 or 6 3♠ : 4 or 7 3nt : 5 4x: 8(4aces)+zoom shape

 

pbbly better to switch 3♥&3♠

 

Even so, 3 ctrl difference leaves pbbly too often ambiguity.

 

What about :

 

3♥: 4 or 6 3♠ : 3 or 7 3nt : 5 4x : 8 (4aces) +zoom shape

 

on 3♥, one still has 3♠ for 3nt if 4, else 4x (6) +zoom shape

 

on 3♠-3NT, opener would bid again with 7. Only problem is when ambiguity remains and responder wants to go on (that should be rare enough).

 

This would allow opener to start "shaping" from 4♣ (included) in case he has

 

6,7 and 8 ctrls

 

compared to my actual method where it's only possible in the 4 and 7 ctrls cases (only the 4ctrl case in fact since 7 ctrl starts from 4♦)

 

Looks like an improvement worth a system revision.

 

About the shape method :

 

If responder bids the relay, it's a master-slave seq (case 2) of my last post)

 

i.e.: ...3NT 5 ctrls, 4♣ relay

4♥ (4 cards, no 4♦), 4♠relay

4NT (4♠) : the rape suit (5♣ would be 3424, 5♦2434 and 5♥3433), 5♣relay

5♦4432, 5♥4423

 

If responder bypass the relay, it's natural 4+ cards (case 1) of my last post) with +/- classical confit methods on.

 

I'll try to post an example, not much time these days...

 

 

Val

[dake50]

Try Yellow Rose of Texas follow-ups to Texas.

Shape shown/known, 4 or 5 controls guaranteed.

CONFIT else.

[Valardent]

Try Yellow Rose of Texas follow-ups to Texas.

Shape shown/known, 4 or 5 controls guaranteed.

CONFIT else.

Sorry to ask but, u see, I'm not an english "native" and what u posted is simply incomprehensible to me.

 

Could you clear that up?

 

Tx,

 

Val

[Valardent]

[hv=w=sxxhakxdkxxxckqxx&e=saxhxxdaqjxxcajxx]266|100|[/hv]

 

1NT 15-17 2♠

2NT(mini) 3♦

3NT(5ctrl) 4♣

4♦ 4♥

5♣ 5♦

5♠2344 5NT

6♦♣Q 6♠

7♣no♠K end.

 

If teams, one should settle for 6m on 5♠.

 

If pairs and strong field, and u think 6nt will be popular, u might decide to ask all the hand.

 

Well, pbbly not the best example but gives an idea how it works.

 

Val

[Cascade]

Just as a random tidbit...

 

If you choose to relay out opener's full shape -- the obvious approach, to me, would be to designate one rebid after Stayman as a relay (I am guessing 3C is most easily spared), and take advantage of SOME information exchange at the 2-level. The 2S immediate response can be used instead to plug whatever you lose from your Stayman structure (presumably longer clubs and a 4-card major, if 1NT-2C-2X-3C is the sequence you give up.)

 

Is there some reason nobody seems to be doing that? (For those of you who still play off-the-shelf Stayman, not the NF variation in onefer's last post.)

We do this:

 

1NT 2♣ Stayman

any 3♣ is a relay

 

The first relay asks for controls - responder is always balanced distributional hands go some other way.

 

After which we bid suits searching for a fit.

 

3♣ has the additional constraint that we have not yet uncovered a fit. With a major fit we immediately confirm the fit with 3 other Major.

 

The 3♣ relay seems to work well. Potentially we can use it with any mildly slammish hand or better without a singleton or void. This includes hands with six-card suits.

[Cascade]

I didn't understand that last paragraph.  Can you elaborate and give examples?

 

I did a frequency analysis of a few hands for our 14-16 NT. 

 

controls....%

3.............7

4.............28

5.............35

6.............25

7.............5

 

I had the thought that one might use either/or responses as for RKC.  Our ask starts at 3H.

 

3S-3 or 6

3N-4 or 7

other-5

 

but I think it leaves too much ambiguity.  Perhaps if we had room for 3 or 7, 4, 5, 6 .  I think you have that room with the extra step.

Hi,

 

7% for 3 ctrl seems low to me.

These are the numbers I get for 14-16 hcp.

 

They are exact (hopefully) for that range.

 

However I have not constrained the hands to be balanced but I doubt that that would make much difference:

 

1 Control 7.35025E-05

2 Controls 0.005876804

3 Controls 0.064862823

4 Controls 0.254499652

5 Controls 0.40022026

6 Controls 0.232985381

7 Controls 0.040377505

8 Controls 0.001104072

[Zelandakh]

Val, what prevents Opener from having Kx/AKx/Kxxx/Qxxx in your example? Your sequence is not fully explained but what I can decipher of it seems to be consistent with this hand which would seem to be better played in a small slam.

 

On these Stayman follow-up structures, I am still not really convinced that it is not better to locate a minor-suit fit at the 3 level before asking for controls. You can achieve this by using 2S over 2D or 2H, and by either 3C or 3D over 2S depending on what hands you like to filter through Stayman. Of course you could always use 3C instead of 2S for this too but that seems less efficient on bidding space since this way you also get a bonus min/max piece of information along the way as well as being a step lower.