Overcall or not ?

[Chamaco]

[hv=d=w&v=b&s=sa7532h53d732ca74]133|100|1♣-?[/hv]

 

I was asked by a friend about this hand.

 

I said that this hand, in my opinion should overcall 1S at first round.

 

The minuses are that it is not a good lead directing bid with an empty suit to the Ace; and "classical" bidding states that a 1 level overcall shopuld either show a full opening or show a good lead directing suit. Also, a 5332 shape is not the best, especially vuln.

We may risk a penalty or we may get pard to blow a trick and/or lose a tempo by leading spadeswhen he might have another appealing lead.

 

The pluses are:

 

- we hold the spade suit: we force responder to bid at the 2 level or to resort to ill-defined negative double sequences

- IN QUICK/OUT QUICK: if we do not mention spades at the one level, (and it is already risky enough), it will be MUCH riskier to show them at a higher level;

- if pard has some spade support and we play preemptive raises, we may jam the auction effectively

 

 

What do you think ?

[luke warm]

i thnk i bid at mps, pass at imps

[Chamaco]

i thnk i bid at mps, pass at imps

Perhaps I am not so experienced, but here my generic risk-benefit analysis:

 

- the risk at IMPS which suggests more caution than MP is to be severely penalized

- the risk at MP that suggests different actions from IMPS is to goive away overtricks.

 

I think that, when bidding is wrong, it is much more ofrten wrong at matchpoiints for lead-directional issues: they buy the contract and pard blows a trick on the lead.

 

So, I am a bidder at both IMPS and MP, but if I were in a cautious mood, I'd rather pass at MP than at IMPS.

[inquiry]

This is probably not suitable advise fo beginner/intermediate forum, so take this with a grain of salt ....

 

I think based upon hcp and distribution, this would be a minimum overcall of a 1C bid, althouth i would like the T8, T9 or 98 of spades instead of all those x's. Give me the T8 of spades, and I would also overcall 1S after a 1D opening bid. I would not bid with this hand over 1H, and if I was vulnerable, I would not bid with this hand either.

 

The BIG advantage of the 1S overcall is that it has preemptive values itself. Robson/Segal called this type of "light overcalls" as a type of pressure bid. The rule I learned from their book is that two level overcalls (without a jump) should always be based upon the hope that the hand belongs to yourside. One level overcalls vulnerable versus not vulnerable, the same. But when not vulnerable, light overcalls that STEAL BIDDING space can be made with lighter than normal values.

 

What does this stealing space concept mean? It means that overcall like:

 

(1C)-1D, or

 

1(D)-1H,

 

should be a typical overcall, showing real values where you have expectations that the hand may very well belong to you. But as your simple overcall starts excluding suits, the lighter the lower limit becomes.

 

So on this hand, the advantage of 1S is it shuts out a 1D and 1H response by your LHO. Your opponents often have a problem with five hearts and about 9 to 11 hcp. A 2H bid is forcing, and shows good valves, which he is not strong enough for. A negative double suggest only four hearts for a lot of players, and they might miss their 5-3 heart fit when hearts are splitting nicely for them (since you have two).

 

If your bidding style includes weak jump overcalls, and when not vul, even on fair five card suits, your partner can often find double dummy defense of NOT leading your suit. Let' imagine an auction with this hand...

 

(1C)-1S-(2N)-P

(3N)--All Pass

 

Your parnter holds...

 

T9

Kxxx

xx

K9xxx

 

He knows that you are weak (he has 7 hcp and opponents have bid strongly to 3NT). If your hand was AQTxx xx xxx xxx he knows you are more likely to have bid 2S instead of 1S. So he knows there is no use starting spades, when he has a weak hand, his spades will never be good enough to be useful. :-) So you will start a club, despite the opening bid, partner will win, and you will duck the club back. The full hand might be...

 

[hv=n=skjxhatxdktxxxct9&w=s

axxxxhxxdxxxcaxx&e=s

t8hkxxdxxxck9xxx&s=s

q9xhqjxxdaqjcqjx

]399|300|[/hv]

[bearmum]

[hv=d=w&v=b&s=sa7532h53d732ca74]133|100|1♣-?[/hv]

 

I was asked by a friend about this hand.

 

I said that this hand, in my opinion should overcall 1S at first round.

 

The minuses are that it is not a good lead directing bid with an empty suit to the Ace; and "classical" bidding states that a 1 level overcall shopuld either show a full opening or show a good lead directing suit. Also, a 5332 shape is not the best, especially vuln.

We may risk a penalty or we may get pard to blow a trick and/or lose a tempo by leading spadeswhen he might have another appealing lead.

 

The pluses are:

 

- we hold the spade suit: we force responder to bid at the 2 level or to resort to ill-defined negative double sequences

- IN QUICK/OUT QUICK: if we do not mention spades at the one level, (and it is already risky enough), it will be MUCH riskier to show them at a higher level;

- if pard has some spade support and we play preemptive raises, we may jam the auction effectively

 

 

What do you think ?

for BIL members I believe PASS would be a good idea - for others I have NO idea :D

[luke warm]

re: ben's post on stealing space, lawrence's book on overcalls mentions the same thing (does more than mention it, actually.. it's one of his cornerstones).. so 1S is great for that... but i'd still not bid it at imps, unless i was feeling frisky

 

this is one reason i play negative free bids... with 6-11 or so, partner can bid 2H with 5+, neg x with 4 (or with a game force hand)

[the hog]

Absoultely at both MPs and Imps. The chance to force them to the 2 level and lay claim to the boss suit is far too much to ignore.

[pbleighton]

Bid 1S, whatever vul/scoring. With exactly 5 cards, there is over 50% chance pd has 3+ and can raise, and over 20% chance of 4+ and can raise to 3(both actually increased somewhat by the fact opp opened 1C). This is IMHO a Good Thing, and the fact that your suit is spades makes it a Very Good Thing.

 

The downside - you give away some distributional info. Getting doubled after pd's raise is OK - you are Law protected. Doesn't always work, but close enough.

 

If this hand doesn't meet your one level overcall criteria, then of course you can't bid, but then... you are passing LOTTs of hands :)

 

Peter

[Free]

1♠, always except when NV vs V, then I bid 2♠ :)

[EricK]

When I first saw this hand, I thought that the minuses outweighed the pluses. But I set up a quick simulation using Jack, and the hands I looked at showed that it was very rare for anything bad to happen. On the occasions where something bad could happen, it was very difficult for the opponents to actually realise this and penalise us rather than bid on.

 

On the other hand, it was also rare for the bid to actually achieve something positive. Normally, the opponents could make a negative double or bid NT, and get to exactly the same contract they would have anyway.

 

I must point out, I was doing this analysis by hand, so firstly I couldn't look at a large sample, and secondly I was assuming all players bid as well or as badly as I do.

 

So in conclusion: I don't know. If your opponents are better than you, it is probably best not to overcall, but if they are worse, overcalling might see them slip up.

 

Eric

[jtfanclub]

If my partner has passed, I overcall with this.

 

If he hasn't, I don't.

 

I haven't seen any evidence yet that this isn't our hand. Therefore, I want my bid to be constructive, not pre-emptive. We're going to have a hell of a time figuring out if we can make 4♠ if I overcall both with this and a 15 count. If my partner's passed, then I switch to pre-emption and I bid.

[whereagles]

I might overcall or not, depending on how I feel at the moment :)

 

One thing I would not do is to overcall 2S. Others might disagree, but I consider it a strategic error to preempt on hands with unsuitable distribution and two aces. I came to learn this the hard way...