Upgrade To Game After Takeout Double

[gurgistan]

[hv=d=w&v=b&s=saqt4h93dkqt92c95]133|100|Scoring: IMP

Dealer passes. Partner opens 1♠. East makes a takeout double.

 

I am South and had intended to bid 1N and then rebid 3♠ over 2♣, 2♦ or 2♥ and 4♠ over 2♠ and 2N. This is as far as my thinking had gone. Once East makes the takeout double then I upgrade to 4♠. My thought being that our fit is more likely to possess all the honours and be longer than usual. Moreover, if we have game I don't want to miss it.

 

Questions:

1. Is 4♠ correct after the takeout double?

 

2. With a weaker point count, would I have been correct to upgrade a 2♠ response to 3♠?

 

3. Would it be correct to think of the one level upgrade after a takeout double as some kind of rule of thumb?

 

4. In competitive scenarios, I often miss out on slam hands. If my point count had been stronger, eg, 16hcp with the same shape, in this scenario then how would I have gone about investigating a slam?[/hv]

[manudude03]

Sorry to say, but you're way off base. 4S by you is pre-emptive over the double (and typically without the double too). Something like AJxxx x xxx xxxx probably typical vulnerable.

 

The most common convention used with this hand type is Jordan 2NT, where a 2NT response* shows a hand that is worth at least 3♠ without the double. The other alternative if you've agreed it is to bid 3♦ (showing limit raise values or better, 4 card support and a good ♦ suit). Any hand that is raising to 3S should have 4 card support, with 3 card support and single raise values, you still bid 2S. With better hands, redouble and bid spades at the lowest level.

 

*If you had a hand that wanted to bid a natural 2NT, redouble and bid NT later.

 

There's no need to "upgrade" as such, it's more like downgrading the requirements. And yes, be prepared to bid one more in competition.

 

Same start as this hand, then you can make a move later if needed. It's not worth that much effort for now though since slams are rare when the opponents make a takeout double.

[P_Marlowe]

#1 no, ..., wait it depends on your intention, 4S is a preemtive bid,

and if yu plan to bid 4S for tactical reasons, than the bid is ok,

although you are closing the door for slam

#2 2S and 3S are also usually played as preemptive bids, but you can

play 3S only as preemptive, if you have a way to show an inv. as

well, so this is basically a matter or partnership agreement.

Most would use 2NT to show an inv.+ raise, and would XX, if they

would hold a +10 bal. count without a fit.

#3 no

#4 see #2, but forgetting about slam, if they have shown opening values

is not the worst idea.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[gwnn]

1♠-x-2NT is always a spade raise and I think most people would recognise it as such, even on BBO.

[neilkaz]

1♠-x-2NT is always a spade raise and I think most people would recognise it as such, even on BBO.

I'd bet megabucks against that statement that most people would recognize Jordon/Truscott 2NT on BBO. A shocking number of North Americans that I play with and watch don't play Jordon, even though many of them play Jacoby 2NT (and quite a few of those don't know how to respond to Jacoby and just wing it).

 

Additionally, many of those from other continents, including some who play Jacoby 2NT and who commonly play with American 2/1ers, don't play Jordon.

 

About a month ago, a self rated expert American 2/1er sat opposite me, and quickly said," your profile OK except Jordon". One of the opps was on a short break so I had time to ask her what 2NT was over a takeout double and she said "natural 11-12 pts". So I asked what to do with a fit and a limit raise and she said XX and also with a forcing raise. I think this treatment dates back to the moon landings?

 

Anyhow, Jordon really should be standard American, but alas, it still doesn't seem to be from my BBO experiences.

[gwnn]

That's interesting. Our experiences are quite different then.`

[Lobowolf]

As a side note, if I have this hand, I'm not letting partner out at 3♠, with or without the double.

[gwnn]

I agree but I forgot to include that in my last post, this is not a limit raise, this is a game force.

[kgr]

- I would always go to 4♠ with your example hand

- I don't see why you should always upgrade if LHO DBL's (If partner has extra length in ♠ then he will upgrade his hand). If partner has no extra length then it is a bit more likely that ♠ are 4-0

- After the DBL:

   - xx in ♥ and ♣ is not good. partners honous are more likely to be covered by RHO.

   - But I wouldn't downgrade the hand; Seems like ♦'s will be worth more and maybe LHO will not have an entry to play through ♥xx or ♣xx.

[neilkaz]

That's interesting. Our experiences are quite different then.`

Yes, I've run across all types and the only thing that is almost 100% standard seems to be that the jump raise to 3♠ is preemptive.

 

Some XX and then bid 3 or 4M to show limit or GF. (Ancient) Some play that XX and then bid 3 is limit, but that 2NT is Jacoby. And I've seen a few jump right to 4♠ with minimal GF's like the OP hand here (noting that these are 2/1ers and not precision players)

 

Agreed that I want to GF with the OP hand here.

 

.. neilkaz .. hoping to live long enough to see Jordon as truly standard

[pooltuna]

1)Not with this particular hand

2)Use Jordan(2NT over the X) to show LR+ hands. I would have opened the hand you are showing so could use Jordan if the 2♦ replaced the Q

3) yes 2♠ is a normal crappy raise while 3♠ is a preemptive raise showing a 9 card fit(attention to vulnerability applies though) and 4♠ is normally a 10 card fit preempt.

4) start with Jordan where new suits below game are forcing.

[gwnn]

That's interesting. Our experiences are quite different then.`

Yes, I've run across all types and the only thing that is almost 100% standard seems to be that the jump raise to 3♠ is preemptive.

 

Some XX and then bid 3 or 4M to show limit or GF. (Ancient) Some play that XX and then bid 3 is limit, but that 2NT is Jacoby. And I've seen a few jump right to 4♠ with minimal GF's like the OP hand here (noting that these are 2/1ers and not precision players)

 

Agreed that I want to GF with the OP hand here.

 

.. neilkaz .. hoping to live long enough to see Jordon as truly standard

Just to clarify: I didn't mean to say that everyone bids 2NT when appropriate, I said that everyone understands 2NT as a raise over a double. I know you said that you'd encountered someone who insisted that 2N be 11-12 bal I believe you and stand corrected- nevertheless I would always expect partner to understand it and in the 5% that he doesn't I will accept my blame and look for another table (talking about BBO pick up partners here)

[aguahombre]

If you had a way to show a serious invite after the double, with diamonds, spades and nothing in the other suits, would you do so? Or would you insist on game in spades?

 

One way to do the above is xfer to diamonds over the double, then jump to 3S.

[jonottawa]

The single most important lesson you should draw from this hand is that you need to work on your hand evaluation. It should never cross your mind to stop below game when partner opens 1♠. You have opener opposite opener with a 9 card fit.

 

Other lessons:

 

There are almost always ways to differentiate between raises based on strength and weak raises based on distribution. Learn them.

 

Interference does not automatically justify overbidding. Sometimes interference will rob you of an invitational sequence so you bid game with an invitational hand but your inclination should be to bid normally, not to overbid just because an opp made a noise.

 

To show a 4 card limit raise, you do not run through 1N first (at least in any system I suspect you might be playing.)

[nige1]

[hv=d=w&v=b&s=saqt4h93dkqt92c95]133|100|Scoring: IMP

Dealer passes. Partner opens 1♠. East makes a takeout double.

I am South and had intended to bid 1N and then rebid 3♠ over 2♣, 2♦ or 2♥ and 4♠ over 2♠ and 2N. This is as far as my thinking had gone. Once East makes the takeout double then I upgrade to 4♠. My thought being that our fit is more likely to possess all the honours and be longer than usual. Moreover, if we have game I don't want to miss it.

Questions:

1. Is 4♠ correct after the takeout double?

2. With a weaker point count, would I have been correct to upgrade a 2♠ response to 3♠?

3. Would it be correct to think of the one level upgrade after a takeout double as some kind of rule of thumb?

4. In competitive scenarios, I often miss out on slam hands. If my point count had been stronger, eg, 16hcp with the same shape, in this scenario then how would I have gone about investigating a slam?[/hv]

IMO, after partner opens 1♠ and RHO doubles...

1. This 6-loser hand is too strong for a pre-emptive 4♠. Especially after a double, you can agree that sound raises to three or better go through 2N (forcing). Even if partner shows a weak opener, this hand is worth a raise to four. Also, with this kind of hand, you can agree to play a 3♦ fit-jump (forcing). Then you are less likely to miss a slam opposite:
   ♠ Kxxxxx ♥ x ♦ AJx ♣ Axx
   
2. With 4 ♠ or 5 ♠ and a weaker hand, you should stretch to raise to 3♠ or 4♠.
   
3. A 2♠ raise normally shows 3 ♠. It has a fairly wide-range and can be quite weak after a take-out double.
   
4. You can agree that 2N and fit-jump responses are unlimited -- i.e. can take care of very good raises, too.
   

[hanp]

- I would always go to 4♠ with your example hand

This.

[bucky]

In case no one mentioned this: your initial plan before the double (bidding 1NT followed by 3♠) is already flawed. I would force to game with your hand with or without competition. But even if you feel like more conservative, at least try 3♠ limit raise, not 1NT then 3♠.

 

As most have pointed out, after 1♠ (X), 4♠ shows a shapely hand with good trump support (often 5+) and few HCP (for some reason this standard treatment is rarely known among majority of BBO players). If you have a limit raise or better hand with 4+ trumps, start with artificial 2NT. A natural 2NT is not needed here, since with that hand you would start with XX.

[gurgistan]

In case no one mentioned this: your initial plan before the double (bidding 1NT followed by 3♠) is already flawed. I would force to game with your hand with or without competition. But even if you feel like more conservative, at least try 3♠ limit raise, not 1NT then 3♠.

 

As most have pointed out, after 1♠ (X), 4♠ shows a shapely hand with good trump support (often 5+) and few HCP (for some reason this standard treatment is rarely known among majority of BBO players). If you have a limit raise or better hand with 4+ trumps, start with artificial 2NT. A natural 2NT is not needed here, since with that hand you would start with XX.

Thanks Bucky and everyone who has contributed. My initial evaluation had failed to take into account my shortage points for the two doubletons which tipped the hand from the way I had wished to bid it to a 2/1 hand. Taking into account the shortage points, I would have bid 2♦ and taken it from there. Over the double, I probably would have just gone 4♠.

 

The discussion has been most useful as I was wanting to know just how a takeout double impinged on the bidding.

 

I tend to rush to where I think we should be after intervention as I fear missing game/slam and feel even if I get it wrong it could work out as a sacrifice.

 

Intervention changes everything, yes?