Need a Logical Slam Auction

[ONEferBRID]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sqjtxxhaqxdqjxcax&w=sakxxhxxdxxcjxxxx&e=sxxxxht9dxxxxckxx&s=shkj876xdaktxcqtx]399|300|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

North   South

--         1H

1S        2H

??

 

2/1 context...... but use any bidding system you like.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Our unenlightened bidding went:

North   South

- -         1H

1S        2H

4H ... making 12 tricks

 

Only 2 tables reached slam with a "leap of faith" bid of 6H over 2H.

[Cyberyeti]

I don't think I'm reaching this one, but if I did, it would be.

 

1♥-1♠

2♥-4♣(usually a splinter, but gives you a decent out over 4♦, and you can pass 4♥)

4♦-5♥(nothing else to cue, but interested in slam)

6♥

 

Always awkward when you're short in partner's (bad) bid suit.

[kenrexford]

Life is easier if you support with support. My auction:

 

1♥-2♣(GF, clubs VERY suspect)

2♦-2♥(hearts agreed)

2NT(not two top hearts)-3♦(not two top clubs, diamond card)

3♥(one top heart)-3NT(serious without spade control)

 

At this point, Opener MUST know that Responder has the club Ace, two top hearts, and the diamond Jack, if he is "serious" within the context of what he has denied. Slam, therefore, will turn on something developing in spades, or the club Jack, or the club 9, or some squeeze, or whatever. RKCB to the end. Note that Exclusion is unnecessary when Responder denied a spade control.

[kenrexford]

Life is easier if you support with support. My auction:

 

1♥-2♣(GF, clubs VERY suspect)

2♦-2♥(hearts agreed)

2NT(not two top hearts)-3♦(not two top clubs, diamond card)

3♥(one top heart)-3NT(serious without spade control)

 

At this point, Opener MUST know that Responder has the club Ace, two top hearts, and the diamond Jack, if he is "serious" within the context of what he has denied. Slam, therefore, will turn on something developing in spades, or the club Jack, or the club 9, or some squeeze, or whatever. RKCB to the end. Note that Exclusion is unnecessary when Responder denied a spade control.

[dake50]

Does

1H-1S-

2H-3C force?

 

So over 3D, 4H gets my good support and C-control into this auction?

[kayin801]

Would much rather have seen a 2♦ rebid by opener, this hand is nothing to be ashamed of.

 

With given bids though:

1♥-1♠

2♥-3♣

3♦-3♥

3♠ (hopefully shortness on the auction)-4♣ (losing some lesser honors' value, but its not like we have KQ10xx in spades)

4♦ (furiously trying to catch up with my hand)-etc

 

If we can rebid 2♦:

1♥-1♠

2♦-3♣

3♥-4♣ (should be cue for hearts, excited opposite opener's good 6-4, and now we get there easy)

[peachy]

I like 1H-1S-2D much better. With 6-4, both suits of good quality, and a hand that is not minimum, 3D is a better rebid. That gives responder a chance to appreciate diamond fillers and also to find out that opener is not a balanced minimum. Depending on style, 2H rebid by opener could be something like xx-Qxxxx-AKx-QJx in which case 4H is plenty high enough!

[hanp]

I also dislike the 2H rebid.

 

Since kenreford started it, I would also respond 2C instead fo 1S. Opener would then show a 0643 shape with (eventually) 4C and I think responder would just ask for keycards in hearts.

[Siegmund]

As already said by many others, I think 2H by South is a pretty serious underbid. After 1H-1S-2D there's at least some chance of being able to catch up later if a fit surfaces.

 

And as I've said in many other threads, there is a reason why I play 1H-1S-2D-3H as natural and forcing, relegating the 12-pointers to FSF rather than having bad slam auctions on hands like this.

 

After that start and 3S-4C-4D cuebids, there's at least SOME chance somebody will figure out the trumps are solid and bid the slam (but finding out for sure that there is no diamond loser to go along with the missing CK is hard.)

[rduran1216]

1H 1S

2H 4C

4D 4NT

5NT 6H

[ONEferBRID]

Here are 2 other concepts ( from my notes ) to solve the GF bid problem for Responder. Subsequent bids still are not easy:

 

1) Meckwell:

1H - 1S

2D - 2S! ( they treat this as an artificial GF )

3H - ??

 

2) Bill Higgins has suggested 2S! as a limit raise+, "fit-showing-jump" with 3 cards Hts ( Jacoby 2NT, or some such, would be a GF w/ 4 cards ):

 

1H - 2S! ( let's say it should be GF w/3h )

3D - 4C ( cue; denying Sp Ctrl )

4NT( not worried about Voidwood since no A,K w/partner) - 5S ( 2 + hQ )

6H

[dake50]

An artificial (2xClubs. Natural must promise 3+clubs) 2C GF?

Now what would the 2D GF look like in contraposition? How different from 2C GF? Surely not also 2xD?

Artificial some other way controls /trumps / points? Develop these like Swiss raises?

What rebids then show real 4-5x clubs or 6+clubs --the real suit cases?

[P_Marlowe]

1H (1) - 1S (2)

2H (3) - 3D (4)

3H (5) - 4C (6)

4D (7) - 5C (8)

6H (9)

 

 

(1) 2/1 context

(2) we would bid 2NT as Jacoby, but most likely you require 4 card supp.

(3) I would prefere 2D, espesially if it promises a 4 card suit

(4) values, but can be improvised sometimes

(5) nothing else looks better, denies 3 spades

(6) agreeing hearts, slam move, not 100% clear, if it promises a control

(7) Cue, showing a top honor

(8) Cue, First round control, ..., the diamond cue made the hand stronger,

one will face at best a spade doubleton, the cue denies also 1st or 2nd

round control in spades you dont have to bid this, but if you dont open crap,

the 5 level should be reasonably safe, and stopping in 4M without making

another move would be very timid, but usually not the brave come back home

from the war.

(9) AK in diamonds, spade void, this needs to be enough

 

The key bid in this sequence is 5C.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

 

PS: It is funny, that peoble insist on playing 2NT as GF raise with 4 cards,

start a flame war, if someone suggests to weaken the req. for 2NT, and later

on invent new conventions to show the GF raise with 3 cards, one would

think that responding hands with GF values und 3 card support are more freq.

than hands with GF values and 4 cards. - I could not resist, as I have read the

amount of comments suggesting new toys for hands with GF values and 3 card

support.

[hanp]

ONEferBRID,

 

Instead of looking at one hand and choosing the methods that would work on this hand, I think that you should pick good methods to play, and then look at how you can bid the hands well within this method. Given any two hands you can always find a method that works for these hands and then say, aha, look how good the method is! That doesn't work, and no agreements work best for every pair of hands.

 

Having said that, I think the meckwell idea is very good.

[Zelandakh]

QJTxx

AQx

QJx

Ax

 

-

KJ876x

AKTx

QTx

S. 1H = 10-17, 5+ hearts

N. 1S = 10+, 0-3 hearts

S. 1N = 10-13, 0-3 spades

N. 2C = GF relay

S. 3C = 6 hearts, 4 diamonds, 0-1 spades

N. 3D = relay

S. 3H = 0=6=4=3

N. 3S = relay

S. 4D = 4 A/K controls

N. 4H = relay

S. 5C = controls in both red suits, no club control

N. 6H = partner has HK and DAK, can count 11 tricks and a club ruff

[kenrexford]

An artificial (2xClubs. Natural must promise 3+clubs) 2C GF?

Now what would the 2D GF look like in contraposition? How different from 2C GF? Surely not also 2xD?

Artificial some other way controls /trumps / points? Develop these like Swiss raises?

What rebids then show real 4-5x clubs or 6+clubs --the real suit cases?

It depends on who you ask. For my part, clubs is natural UNLESS Responder's next call agrees Opener's first suit. With clubs AND agreement, there are some fit-jump options later, to help the cause.

 

Diamonds are generally natural.

 

If you could handle a short club opening, or a Gazilli-like short club rebid, then you copuld probably handle this 2♣ call also.

[straube]

QJTxx

AQx

QJx

Ax

 

-

KJ876x

AKTx

QTx

 

1H-1S

2D-2S (artificial GF)

3C-3D (higher shortness, relay)

3N-4C (0643, relay)

4S-4N (8 QPs, relay (though can jump to 6H at this point)

5D-5H (A, K, or Q of H and 0 or 2 of top 3 diamonds)

at this point we can figure out that partner must have V Kxxxxx AKxx Qxx

[mike777]

[Zelandakh]

For me, the natural auction would start 1H - 1S - 2D - 3C - 3H - 4C. I only mention it because noone else has given this possibility. Having a gadget that allows the auction to become forcing and agreeing hearts at the 3 level would be beneficial. Responding 2C works great on this hand but there are lots of other hands where it is not so good. In the past Fred has pointed out some dangers of using 2/1 on unsuitable hands just to establish the game force.

[effervesce]

Does nobody play

1♥ - 1♠

2♥ - 3♥ as game forcing?

 

Mind you, it doesn't really help for this hand...

[ONEferBRID]

Does nobody play

1♥ - 1♠

2♥ - 3♥ as game forcing?

 

Mind you, it doesn't really help for this hand...

Meckwell plays 2S! as an artificial GF in the following auction:

1H - 1S

2D - 2S! = artificial GF

 

I would probably think they do the same in:

1H - 1S

2H - 2S! ( but I don't know for sure )

 

then it could continue:

3D - 3H ( and no worry about Opener passing )

 

Now when Hts are agreed and Sp are "out-of-focus" ( as Ken would say ),

then another Meckwell method for RKC is 4S! = kickback for Hts whereas 4NT! is Voidwood w/ Sp-void ).

The North hand would reply 5S! ( 2 + hQ .. excluding the Sp-ace ) to 4NT!

I guess you could even ask for specific Kings, and end up in 6H anyway.

[junyi_zhu]

[hv=d=e&v=n&n=sqjtxxhaqxdqjxcax&w=sakxxhxxdxxcjxxxx&e=sxxxxht9dxxxxckxx&s=shkj876xdaktxcqtx]399|300|Scoring: MP[/hv]

 

North   South

--         1H

1S        2H

??

 

2/1 context...... but use any bidding system you like.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Our unenlightened bidding went:

North   South

- -         1H

1S        2H

4H ... making 12 tricks

 

Only 2 tables reached slam with a "leap of faith" bid of 6H over 2H.

1H 1S

2D 3H(gf)

3N(serious slam try, denies high card spade controls) 4C

4D 5H

6H

 

4C/D are both cuebids.

5H shows slam interest, but no cuebids available, so it denies S control and

showing good trumps and(or) diamonds), now 6H isn't too difficult to bid.

[bucky]

1H 1S

2D 3H(gf)

3N(serious slam try, denies high card spade controls) 4C

4D 5H

6H

 

4C/D are both cuebids.

5H shows slam interest, but no cuebids available, so it denies S control and

showing good trumps and(or) diamonds), now 6H isn't too difficult to bid.

This sequence showcases the advantage of using 2nd-round jump bid by responder as game-force. However it makes 4th-suit-forcing ambiguous, which may create other problems on different hands, unless the partnership is prepared and thoroughly discussed this. For this reason, many players (including me, and I suspect same is true for many others on the forum) favor the simplicity and agree to play 4th suit GF. I think the OP's question is in this context: assuming you play 4sf to game and 3♥ rebid would have been invitational only, what is the best route to slam?

[junyi_zhu]

1H 1S

2D 3H(gf)

3N(serious slam try, denies high card spade controls) 4C

4D 5H

6H

 

4C/D are both cuebids.

5H shows slam interest, but no cuebids available, so it denies S control and

showing good trumps and(or) diamonds), now 6H isn't too difficult to bid.

This sequence showcases the advantage of using 2nd-round jump bid by responder as game-force. However it makes 4th-suit-forcing ambiguous, which may create other problems on different hands, unless the partnership is prepared and thoroughly discussed this. For this reason, many players (including me, and I suspect same is true for many others on the forum) favor the simplicity and agree to play 4th suit GF. I think the OP's question is in this context: assuming you play 4sf to game and 3♥ rebid would have been invitational only, what is the best route to slam?

Well, the so called "standard 4th suit gameforcing" (especially after 1H 1S 2D) should have been abandoned long time ago. The reason for its existence as a standard convention is that most players are just too lazy to improving their bidding structures. Playing 1H 1S 2D 3C as a general 4th suit gameforcing, you basically have no any low level raising method at three level to show a gf hand, which is just horrible. It is also very ridiculous, you have an easy way to bid 3H to invite, which only covers a very small spectrum of the hands, and you can most likely show your gf hand with support at 4 level, or even 5 level sometimes, which means you have no cuebids available, your rkc sequence can be messed, and opener has to bid 3NT over your 3C with a very wide range of hands, from 12 to 18. All in all, this "standard" treatment isn't very effective at all if you want to achieve high bidding accuracies. The similar wrong structure also happens after 1H 1S 2H, now you have many ways to sign off or to invite and very few ways to show gf hands and set up trumps at 3 level. That's also why many now play 2S and(or) 2NT after this sequence for conventional meanings. IMO, the basic design principle of bridge bidding is not to devise a lot of sign off or invitation sequences, but to improve the game and slam bidding.