pass with this defensive raise?

[DJNeill]

Hi all,

 

MP None Vul.

 

Q985

J93

AJ9

J52

 

RHO 1st seat opens 1D. LHO bids 1S. Partner bids 2H. RHO bids 2S.

 

Here you play that

2N shows a limit raise of hearts (loosely defined)

3C is natural

3D is undiscussed

3H is just competitive

X is undiscussed

 

Do you raise to 3H? or bid 2N? or Pass? or Double?

 

Thanks,

Dan

[inquiry]

First, redefine 3♣ as fit non jump. It is impossible you could decide to bid clubs now having passed over 1♦ without a heart fit. And if you have good clubs and modest heart support where a natural 3♣ might make sense, you could use snap dragon dbl. Of course, your hand is not suitable for 3♣ bid as fit non-jump or anything else.

 

I would save 2NT for a hand with four trumps, so that bid is out.

 

I would define double here as snapdragon (good clubs tolerence for hearts), and so that is out as well.

 

I would define 3♦ as a mixed raise. After partners "brave" sandwich 2♥ bid, I like my heart suit, I like the locaction and size of my diamond cards (even the nine very likley is working). Three card support here is good enough for the 3♦ bid. But sadly, while I would like to bid 3♦ to show this hand... mixed raise with defensive values, the hand just isn't quite strong enough for this bid. Change the club J to King I would bid 3♦, probably if it was the Queen instead of the jack too, and if feeling frisky if I had CLUB JTx instead of Jxx..

 

So the option is pass and 3♥. On this hand, I would raise to 3♥ based on lott.. I fully expect they have an 8 card spade fit and we have a 9 card heart fit. I hope they don't double... and I hope to get a shot at 3 or 4 ♠.

 

Ben

[hrothgar]

Hi all,

 

MP None Vul.

 

Q985

J93

AJ9

J52

 

RHO 1st seat opens 1D. LHO bids 1S. Partner bids 2H. RHO bids 2S.

 

Here you play that

2N shows a limit raise of hearts (loosely defined)

3C is natural

3D is undiscussed

3H is just competitive

X is undiscussed

 

Do you raise to 3H? or bid 2N? or Pass? or Double?

 

Thanks,

Dan

I don't care what the Law says, I'm passing.

 

I have a defensively oriented hand: 4333 shape and slow tricks suggest defending rather than pushing us to the three level. Maybe I'm getting conservative in my old age, but I'm too worried about -300...

[inquiry]

Hi all,

 

MP None Vul.

 

Q985

J93

AJ9

J52

 

RHO 1st seat opens 1D.  LHO bids 1S.  Partner bids 2H.  RHO bids 2S.

 

Here you play that

2N shows a limit raise of hearts (loosely defined)

3C is natural

3D is undiscussed

3H is just competitive

X is undiscussed

 

Do you raise to 3H? or bid 2N? or Pass? or Double?

 

Thanks,

Dan

I don't care what the Law says, I'm passing.

 

I have a defensively oriented hand: 4333 shape and slow tricks suggest defending rather than pushing us to the three level. Maybe I'm getting conservative in my old age, but I'm too worried about -300...

Well I am worried about -300 and if I pass, I am worried about the +420 we could have gotten if I had bid. You pay your entry fee, you take your chances.

 

Ben

[whereagles]

There's not hurry to bid on this hand. Pard is short in spades, so, if he has extras, he'll reopen 2S with a double, after which you can support him. Meanwhile, if opps bid to 3 or 4S, that suits you just fine.

[Free]

Clearcut pass, and if p doubles or so, you can still support or use some other bid.

[pclayton]

Hi all,

 

MP None Vul.

 

Q985

J93

AJ9

J52

 

RHO 1st seat opens 1D. LHO bids 1S. Partner bids 2H. RHO bids 2S.

 

Here you play that

2N shows a limit raise of hearts (loosely defined)

3C is natural

3D is undiscussed

3H is just competitive

X is undiscussed

 

Do you raise to 3H? or bid 2N? or Pass? or Double?

 

Thanks,

Dan

I'm passing. My ODR is below bad; further, the total tricks are reduced by one due to my 4333. 7 of 9 points in their suits, and a 9 and a 98.

 

I think the bigger question is whether or not you pull pard's reopening dbl with this. I'm sticking to my guns and passing twice. If pard has real offense, he can reopen with 2N to show a good 6-4. A reopening dbl should be more like 1-5-3-4. I love the idea of defending with the majority of the deck in this case.

[luke warm]

first of all, 2nt is out for me... an overcall against 2 bidding ops?... i'm bidding 3h based on 2 things... my diamonds are pulling their weight, and partner is *very* short in spades...

 

partner's bid is probably based on good hearts, good clubs, short spades.. i have good cover for diamonds... i'd prefer to have a 4th heart, but i don't... if they bid 3S, i have to go into a huddle (just kidding, i'd pass fairly quickly - partner's bid is probably based on good distribution and not a whole lot of defense)

[inquiry]

Hmmm.. the passers seem confident partner will reopen. I think this is not so clear. Partner is short in spades, but he already stuck his neck out with the sandwich 2H bid, and he knows you don't have too much as you didn't bid one 1♦ so there is no way he is thinking you are trapping over 2♠. If you pass 2♠ we all KNOW you will be defending 2♠. Even if you beat it, which isn't a guarantee, you are likely not to score too well. This is matchpoints after all, +50 isn't going to be a great score.

 

Think about what hand your parnter will bid 2♥ with on this auction. I bet 6♥ or more is almost a requirement. Average number might be 6.3 hearts or so.

 

Let't "imagine" some situations. On defense and offense, we can imagine 2 diamnd tricks from our hand. It is hard to imagine a spade trick (partner could have singleton king I guess), in hearts, partner with the expect six, we have at most two. So we have, like 2♦, 0/1/2 ♥, 0/1♠. So the real issue here is clubs.

 

If we have two ♥ tricks on defense, we will win 6♥ and 2♦ in our contract. So if we can score a single club we make. If we can't get a club, they can make. So bidding 3♥ seems to be +140 or -50 avoiding -110. If we can win only 1♥ trick on defense, we need two clubs or a club and a spade to defeat them. But is we have two black suit winners and two diamnod winners, then 5 ♥ will see us to 9 tricks.

 

So while I agree that bidding 3♥ risk -300, I think passing at matchpoint risk a much more frequent bad score. And the advantage of 3♥ is it is likely to goad them into bidding more.

 

Ben

[jtfanclub]

Think about what hand your parnter will bid 2♥ with on this auction. I bet 6♥ or more is almost a requirement. Average number might be 6.3 hearts or so.

Wow, you must not play with my partners very often. B)

 

2♥ from my partners tend to show one of two hands:

 

-A hand with six hearts and not many points (6-10), interfering because he wants to compete to the three level with a fit. This hand could have opened 2♥.

 

-A hand with points (12-15) and 5-6 hearts, without four clubs. This hand could have opened 1♥.

 

Not vulnerable, I would be shocked if he had seven hearts- that's worth an immediate jump to the three level.

 

3 hearts doesn't scare me...if I go for more than 100 I'd be surprised. But I see two very substantial risks. One is that by bidding, I'll help them find game if my partner has the weak-with-hearts hand. If one of them has four small hearts, for example, they'll realize that it's only one loser and feel more confident about bidding on. The other is that my partner, with his long hearts and short spades, will believe that I bid 3♥ with shortness in a minor, and bid 4♥ when we're not even close, either as a sacrifice over 3♠ or to make.

 

I don't believe, based on the bidding so far, that we have game. But I don't know if they have game- they might. So I don't want to do anything that will help them make that decision.

 

I pass.

[inquiry]

jtfanclub.. remind me not to play with your parnters...

 

Not vul, my partners bid 3♥ on most weak hands with hearts, be it 5 or 6, with seven and weak they bid 4♥. 2♥ here on yuck has very little going for it. IT even allows a support double versus a normal raise, a luxtury not allowed with a 3♥ bid.

 

My partners have VALUES for this 2♥ bid.. and so do I. After all, it is not likely to be a good "lead directoring" bid when partner is short is spades and partner is weak. I didn't have enough to overcall so they likelywill play the hand, and after the one guy bids spades, partner is very likely on lead.

 

As for overcalling in hearts on very meger values.. (your 6-10 pts), I fully encourage this if it can happen at the one level and if only one opponent has bid... to come into the sandwich position at the two level with such hands is not good bridge, not even average bridge.

 

Ben

[Chamaco]

It seems to me that this hand should be a clear example of "adjustments to the law":

 

- our length in spades suggest they will have only 8 trumps

- 4333 shape is a minus

- wasted SQ is a minus

- quacks honors also are a minus

 

It seems to me that these elemnts tend to suggest this is one of those hands where there are less tricks than trumps, but I am not Larry Cohen .... B)

 

-----------------

 

As for what I'd bid, I'd be torn between pass and a slightly offshape responsive double to show my values (if p bids clubs I correct to 3H).

IMO a direct raise in H could encourage partner to bid (4H to make or sacrifice) too much, because he is likely to be short in opps suit and get excited.

Double gives values denying a good fit, which is what I think of this hand; I much rather give a 2nd round preference to H.

[paulhar]

Partner already stuck his neck out to bid 2H and may not feel like it's his job to bid again. I support with support. My spades may take a trick and be a nuisance on defense, but opponents frequently bid 3S in these situations. In any event, the only card I expect to be useless in hearts is the SQ.

 

I suspect about 16 total tricks which means I should be bidding - with none vul, it should be -50 instead of -110 or +140 instead of +50. If partner bids 4H, the placement of the diamonds may be enough to make it.

[Antoine Fourrière]

If partner has only five hearts, he has an opening bid (unless he is five-five). Since with 1=5=3=4 or 1=5=4=3 and an opening bid he should double (hearts become a minor when the opponents have spades), he has real pattern, either a six-bagger or a five-five.

Ergo 3♥, and pass over 3♠.

[the hog]

Quote from an acquaintance who commented on this hand -

 

"Of course it's correct to downgrade the hand, but to not raise with 3 hearts to the jack and a side ace is like slapping partner in the face, and saying I don't care about you and your hand - I make the decisions for this partnership."

 

Fwiw I agree, 3H is pretty clear cut.

[jtfanclub]

Not vul, my partners bid 3♥ on most weak hands with hearts, be it 5 or 6, with seven and weak they bid 4♥.

I'm sure your partners are right, and mine are wrong. Even so, I understand where mine are coming from. The opponents haven't found a fit at the point that he's bidding: 3♥ with six and 6-10 HCP could be very, very wrong. Like, we go for -300 when they struggle to make 90. There's no reason to think that opener doesn't have four hearts. Sure, once the 2♠ bid is made you know you were safe to bid 3♥, but it's a little late to go back and change your bid.

 

Let's say you have....

♠xx

♥KTxxxx

♦Txx

♣Kx

 

Bidding has gone 1♦ P 1♠ to you.

 

What would you bid?

[bearmum]

Hi all,

 

MP None Vul.

 

Q985

J93

AJ9

J52

 

RHO 1st seat opens 1D.  LHO bids 1S.  Partner bids 2H.  RHO bids 2S.

 

Here you play that

2N shows a limit raise of hearts (loosely defined)

3C is natural

3D is undiscussed

3H is just competitive

X is undiscussed

 

Do you raise to 3H? or bid 2N? or Pass? or Double?

 

Thanks,

Dan

I'm ASSUMING that you have not played with partner a lot ( and MAYBE this is the FIRST time and the agreements you have noted is all that has managed to be discussed) :lol:

 

I will bid 3 ♥- "just competetive" --- SURERLY partner will NOT bid on with a weakish hand?? --- and IF he/she does and goes for a BIG number -- put him/her on your "Prefer never to play with again " list :lol: ( as obviously is a partner that you have just met :lol: )

[Trpltrbl]

Support with support.

But nomore then 3♥, that's all my hand is worth. It does help that I tend to play with pd's who don't overcall on crap.

Am sure that there will be many passers out there, who are used to playing with pds that will overcall on about anything.

 

Mike :lol:

[Chamaco]

Support with support.

I was taught by mentors on BBO that with 4333 you consider ur support shorter by one card because of no ruffing power.

If that holds true, it means that in the given hand it should be counted 2 card support.

[inquiry]

Support with support.

I was taught by mentors on BBO that with 4333 you consider ur support shorter by one card because of no ruffing power.

If that holds true, it means that in the given hand it should be counted 2 card support.

Hi...

 

I think all rules are made to be overlooked. Do this. Start imaginig normal hands for this auction. Give your partner five good hearts, or six average hearts and roughly an opening hand. Assume EAST opened his better minor and they have an eight or nine card spade fit, with EAST (your RHO) having four spades.

 

Now, think about honor placement. Who has the diamond cards and how are your AJ9 located. If your parner has club honors (and with little in diamonds (maybe one honor) and less in spades, he rates to have at least one club honor.

 

Now figure out what they can make, normally, and what you can make normally. If you can BEAT them in 2♠, where are your tricks?

 

One at most is spades, two at most in hearts (one of them surely has a doubleon), ok likely two in diamonds. That is five tricks. You will still need a club if you get a spade, and two clubs if you can't. And this down one earns you 50 points.

 

Let's look at the situation where, you win two clubs and no spades to beat them one. You can expect to win the same two clubs in hearts, and the same two diamonds in hearts. That is already four tricks. IF you can win five hearts (partner has six card suit or AKQ fifth, or AQT fifth with hook on), you could be +140. The odds favor your partner having a six card suit here.

 

And if you can't beat 2SP.. say you win no spade and only one club? So you win 2H, 2D and 1C so they make? In 3H, you still win 2D, 1C, and your hoped for 5H for down one, and if you can win 6H, you can even make 3H while they make 2S.

 

I think if you play with the hands, you will find the right bid here is 3H (if partner knows this is not a game try of course--- you got to thave that agreement). Part of the reason is this bid works in not that you have any side ace, it is the diamond ACE combined with J9 behind the natural diamond bidder. Odds are you will score two diamond tricks (offense or defense). Partner didn't DOUBLE 1♠, didn't bid a takeout sandwich 1NT, or cue-bid.. and yet we KNOW (not guess) that partner is short in spades. So partner rates to have some diamond legnth or EXTRA long heart legnth... both of which FAVOR your bidding.

 

So are your mentors right that 3 card support is not great? Yes. Is 4333 shape a negative? You betcha. Does having Q-fourth in their suit suggest defending instead of bidding? Without a doubt. But BRIDGE LOGIC, honor placement, and type of game makes biddign 3H here 100% clear choice. This is one reason why bridge is so facinating.

 

Hope that helps give you something to think about even if in the long run you disagree with me.

 

Ben

[luke warm]

Let's say you have....

♠xx

♥KTxxxx

♦Txx

♣Kx

 

Bidding has gone 1♦ P 1♠ to you.

 

What would you bid?

i don't really understand what this has to do with the problem, but fwiw i pass this... i have the worst possible diamonds, and pard's spade honors, assuming he has any, are dead.. what's the vulnerability? i think it doesn't much matter, if i'm doubled at 3H, the only way it can conceivably be good is if they are vul and we aren't and they miss something in their haste to gut me

[Chamaco]

Hope that helps give you something to think about even if in the long run you disagree with me.

 

Ben

All the hints are useful, Ben.

 

All I was saying in my choice to start with a double was: I will raise pard, but I will do it showing a delayed preference rather than a direct raise, to avoid an advance sacrifice by pd if he has extra distribution.

 

If I give a weak raise, pard may still consider a sacrifice even if my raise is weak, if he has extra distribution to allow it.

 

The point is that I want to make surre we do not play 4H unless pard has a really distributional hand

 

If I start with a double, I expect the following cases:

 

1) pard leaves the double in playing me for 8+ hcp, 2 cards in H and 4 cards in clubs. I think this should not be a disaster (although that may occur, occasionally).

And in any case, given my shape, I rate the chances for pard to leave the double in close to 0.01%

 

2) pard rebids his suit. I will happily pass 3H.

 

3) pard bids clubs (the suit shown by my responsive double). In this case I will give a preference to hearts.

Pard will bid then 4H only if he really has extras in distribution or strength.

 

 

What I am saying is that in all these scenarios we will play 3H. Pard will decide to bid 4H if he has the hand to bid it opposite a balanced hand (= he should have a high ODR to compensate my low ODR).

 

I do not think giving a delayed raise means slapping partner as Ron says: in my opinion it means raising him telling him that the raise is not only bad, but has a really low ODR.

The direct raise does not give that piece of info: I mean if my pard raises me to 3H, everytime I have extra distribution and vuln is not unfav., I consider raising as advance sacrifice.

I want to avoid this, and I try to ease my pard's choice by dopubling and later giving a weak preference.

 

Is my thinking so terrible ? :D

[luke warm]

First, redefine 3♣ as fit non jump. It is impossible you could decide to bid clubs  now having passed over 1♦ without a heart fit. And if you have good clubs and modest heart support where a natural 3♣ might make sense, you could use snap dragon dbl. Of course, your hand is not suitable for 3♣ bid as fit non-jump or anything else.

 

I would save 2NT for a hand with four trumps, so that bid is out.

 

I would define double here as snapdragon (good clubs tolerence for  hearts), and so that is out as well.

 

I would define 3♦ as a mixed raise. After partners "brave" sandwich 2♥ bid, I like my heart suit, I like the locaction and size of my diamond cards (even the nine very likley is working). Three card support here is good enough for the 3♦ bid. But sadly, while I would like to bid 3♦ to show this hand... mixed raise with defensive values, the hand just isn't quite strong enough for this bid. Change the club J to King I would bid 3♦, probably if it was the Queen instead of the jack too, and if feeling frisky if I had CLUB JTx instead of Jxx.. 

 

So the option is pass and 3♥. On this hand, I would raise to 3♥ based on lott.. I fully expect they have an 8 card spade fit and we have a 9 card heart fit. I hope they don't double... and I hope to get a shot at 3 or 4 ♠.

 

Ben

i was just using the choices he gave me... actually, 3C and 3H should be forcing, the way i like to play (and 3C should show heart tolerance)... and 2nt should be gb... on this hand, i can't force anything, so i'm bidding 2nt and over the 3c bid (if it gets there) i'll bid 3H

 

if i want to force in hearts, say a decent hand with 4 card support, i cuebid 3D... the double should show clubs so i can't see making that bid on this hand

[the hog]

Another reason Ben is correct on this one -

give pd the following

x

AKTxxx

xxx

AQT

 

You have decent chances for game.

[inquiry]

Hope that helps give you something to think about even if in the long run you disagree with me.

 

Ben

All the hints are useful, Ben.

 

All I was saying in my choice to start with a double was: I will raise pard, but I will do it showing a delayed preference rather than a direct raise, to avoid an advance sacrifice by pd if he has extra distribution.

 

If I give a weak raise, pard may still consider a sacrifice even if my raise is weak, if he has extra distribution to allow it.

 

The point is that I want to make surre we do not play 4H unless pard has a really distributional hand

 

If I start with a double, I expect the following cases:

 

1) pard leaves the double in playing me for 8+ hcp, 2 cards in H and 4 cards in clubs. I think this should not be a disaster (although that may occur, occasionally).

And in any case, given my shape, I rate the chances for pard to leave the double in close to 0.01%

 

2) pard rebids his suit. I will happily pass 3H.

 

3) pard bids clubs (the suit shown by my responsive double). In this case I will give a preference to hearts.

Pard will bid then 4H only if he really has extras in distribution or strength.

 

 

What I am saying is that in all these scenarios we will play 3H. Pard will decide to bid 4H if he has the hand to bid it opposite a balanced hand (= he should have a high ODR to compensate my low ODR).

 

I do not think giving a delayed raise means slapping partner as Ron says: in my opinion it means raising him telling him that the raise is not only bad, but has a really low ODR.

The direct raise does not give that piece of info: I mean if my pard raises me to 3H, everytime I have extra distribution and vuln is not unfav., I consider raising as advance sacrifice.

I want to avoid this, and I try to ease my pard's choice by dopubling and later giving a weak preference.

 

Is my thinking so terrible ? :D

There is not a lot wrong with your apporach... yhou are trying to raise to three hearts instead of letting them play 2S, and at matchpoints that is what is importatn with this hand. I thought your attack on support with support and talking about mentors suggested you favored pass.

 

Yoiur option number one.. partner passing your double will not happen unless WEST psyched 1♠, so forget about that. And yes, if partner bids 3♥ you will pass (altougth as you pass, you will be somewhat worreid about missing game), and if partner bids 3C you will correct to 3H. Now, rather this is trronger than an immediate raise to 3H or weaker is a matter of style.

 

My concern about double is that partner will play me for more. Four clubs is not enough for htis double, as you force partner to bid at the three level, 6 clubs ar emore likely (especially if it doesn not promise a heart tolerance). So if the bidding goes...

 

-- --- -- 1C

Ps 1S 2H 2S

X- 3S ?

 

Are you worried your partner might bid 4C? Even if WEST passed, partner might try 4C to show Extras, or a cue-bid of 3S to show his void. This is the worry here....

 

As for if you raise partner. After a 2/1 sandwich bid, he knows you are playing him for 6 hearts, so 6 hearts will not be enough to get him to bid 4♥. And if he has seven hearts and a spade void, who knows four hearts rates to make perhaps, buecause if he was seven hearts an no minor cards, he would have preemted earlier.

 

I expect partner to pass my 3♥ and to pass their 3♠ unless he expects to make 4♥ because he knows, that I know, he has six trumps. With seven hearts, he might bid again. But if everytime you raise to the limit, your partner then pushes the go button and bids again, he will shoon have to find another pratern, or you will have to stop making the correct bid because you know your partner is a mastermind.

 

Ben