How to bid slam?

[stegenborg]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=s732hat73dk8cj942&s=sa4hkq82daqt32cak]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

This hand is from a fairly strong Norwegian team tournament.

The heart slam was only bid at 4 out of 20 tables. One table played 6NT.

 

Most pairs (including my partner and me) play natural systems (acol or 2/1) with 2♣ as only force.

 

How would you bid the slam?

 

Regards

Kristian

[mich-b]

Perhaps:

 

P - 2♣

2♦ - 2NT

3♣ - 3♥

3♠ ....

......... 6♥

 

3♠ = Artificial , agreeing ♥ , slam invite.

(If you dont play this, bid whatever agrees ♥s and invites slam, maybe 4♦ is cue for you?)

[jvage]

Playing Puppet Stayman and showing the South hand as a 22-24NT:

P - 2♣

2♦ - 2NT

3♣ - 3♦ (one or both majors)

3♠ (4 hearts, not 4 spades) - ?

 

If South bids a lazy 4♥ North should probably pass, but even with a minimum point-count the South hand seems very good for hearts. I would bid 4♣ (cue with extra). Then:

4♦ - 4♥ (this time fortunately it doesn't matter if 4♦ is cue, Last Train or a retransfer :blink: )

 

All ways should lead to slam. I think I prefer 5♥, but would expect 4NT from most non-experts. Depending on your agreed meaning for 4♦ 5♦ may also be an option. I have actually been in worse grand slams than this, it only seems to require decent splits in both hearts and diamonds.

 

John

[Fluffy]

I'd start with 1♦-1♥ but after that it looks like a leap of faith to reach slam.

[hrothgar]

I'd start with 1♦-1♥ but after that it looks like a leap of faith to reach slam.

I dislike opening 2♣ with two suited hands intensely. I dislike opening 2♣ with a Diamond Heart two suiter more than any other two suiter. Consequently, I quite comfortable reversing on strong hands.

 

With all this said and done, this hand looks WAY too strong to consider anything other than a 2♣ opening.

 

Here's the rub... This hand looks way to strong for a simple 2NT rebid. This is a primed out 22 count with three Aces and a 5 card suit.

 

If you're going to claim that this is a balanced hand, you need to lie about your point count. I you can relay through 2♥ then do so.

 

2♣ - 2♦

2♥- 2♠

2N - ...

 

Alternatively, bite the bullet and show the Diamond suit.

[P_Marlowe]

Lets see

 

Pass - 2C (1)

2D (2) - 2NT (3)

3C (4) - 3H (4)

3S (5) - 3NT (6)

4D (7) - 4NT (8)

5D (8) - 6H

 

(1) strong

(2) Relais

(3) selling the hand as 22-23, the alternative is 3D, but it is just a

5 card suit, and there is a rebid problem

Given the 5-4 shape, with honors in the short suit, the NT rebid looks

fairly clear

AK in clubs is a downgrading factor, so you have 22/23 HCP, but not more.

(4) Stayman

(5) setting hearts as trumps, I think 4H is lazy

(6) serious / a waiting bid, asking p, to describe his hand, again 4H is lazy

(7) cue, showing a top honor in diamond, denying top honors in clubs

(8) RKCB, 1KC

 

The key is, that both sides need to avoid lazy bids, I am not claiming,

that I would not bid a lazy 4H instead of 3S / 3NT.

If 4H gets bid, that will end the auction.

 

With kind regards

Marlowe

[spotlight7]

Hi:

 

2C-2D-2NT-3C-3H-3S*=H slam try-3N*(serious slam try)-4D(cue)

check on key cards and bid 6H

 

My 2C-2D-2NT bids shows 22-24 so I would never think about forcing to game

with this hand. You have no game unless partner has some values or a magic fit.

 

Regards,

Robert

[hanp]

2C - 2D

2NT - 3C

3H - 3S (asks about number of hearts)

3NT (4 hearts) - 4D (hearts slam try, could be a fake cue)

!!!

 

Here's the rub... This hand looks way to strong for a simple 2NT rebid. This is a primed out 22 count with three Aces and a 5 card suit.

 

Imo it's absurd to upgrade this hand by 3 points.

[Cyberyeti]

Depends what I open, if I open 1♦ it's easy:

 

1♦-1♥-2N(GF unbalanced)-3♣(almost forced)-4♦(2452)-4♥-4♠(Keycard)-5♣(1/4)-5N(rolling, show me a minor suit K if you have one)-6♦(K♦)-7♥.

 

The only real risk is that partner has xxxx, Axxx, Kxx, xx and there aren't sufficient discards to get rid of the spades.

 

If I open 2♣, we bid:

 

2♣-2♦-2N(23-24)-3♣(5 card major enq)-3♦(no 5 card major, not 2♠/3♥)-3♥-4♣(cue agreeing ♥)-4♦(cue and values)-4♠(keycard) and again the grand may well be reached.

[Free]

2♣-2♠ (strong ; 8-10 BAL)

2NT-3♣ (pretty bal most of the time ; Puppet Stayman)

3♦-3♠ (4 card M ; 4♥ not 4♠)

4♣-4♦ (cue with ♥ fit ; cue)

...

Now opener knows about ♦K (balanced, so 2+♦, so must have ♦K to cuebid).

[dake50]

Miss 4-4H slam, miss 5-3D or 5-4D slam are possible fails to calling this bal 22.

You saw that fail 16 of 20 times in a "fairly strong Norwegian team tournament".

Do you still pick your poison --showing this hand strong bal? Hope never again?

I have a 1D(F1) to show 18+ hearts or H+m. That finds H:4-4 fit and D-top help quickly. Just grand/slam to decide.

[Cyberyeti]

Miss 4-4H slam, miss 5-3D or 5-4D slam are possible fails to calling this bal 22.

You saw that fail 16 of 20 times in a "fairly strong Norwegian team tournament". 

Do you still pick your poison --showing this hand strong bal? Hope never again?

  I have a 1D(F1) to show 18+ hearts or H+m. That finds H:4-4 fit and D-top help quickly. Just grand/slam to decide.

Bidding these slams not too difficult if you play anything sensible over 2N.

 

Example:

 

[hv=n=skj108h7dq92ckj543&s=saq2haj43dkj3caq10]133|200|[/hv]

 

Example from yesterday, we bid 2N-3♣-3♦-3♠-3N-4♣-4N-5N at which point partner had a cow flew by moment and bid 6N rather than the 6♣ that he should bid, fortunately a diamond was led and this was claimed immediately.

 

3♣ 5 card major enq, 3♦ no 5M, not 22/23 in majors, 4♣ 4+cards, 4N to play without 4♣, 5N pass or pick a slam still interested

[655321]

Depends what I open, if I open 1♦ it's easy:

Not so easy this time it seems. It is customary on the forums when given both hands to bid to notice the best contract then construct an auction, however improbable, to reach it. 7♥ is a fairly abominable contract.

[Cyberyeti]

Depends what I open, if I open 1♦ it's easy:

Not so easy this time it seems. It is customary on the forums when given both hands to bid to notice the best contract then construct an auction, however improbable, to reach it. 7♥ is a fairly abominable contract.

Abominable being slightly with the odds I think.

 

If diamonds and hearts behave you're cold for this.

 

If diamonds behave and hearts are 4-1 onside, and the third round club ruff stands up or the Q drops in 1 or 2 you're fine.

 

If hearts are 3-2 and one ruff establishes the diamonds, you need the queen of clubs to drop in 1, 2 or 3 rounds.

 

There are also plenty of possiblilities if J♥ is single and some where J♦ is.

 

At the point you bid the grand, partner could easily hold the J♦, J♥ or Q♣ instead of the J or be 3433 and it could be a lot better than it actually is, he could equally be 4432 and it could have no play.

[hanp]

This one is interesting:

 

If hearts are 3-2 and one ruff establishes the diamonds, you need the queen of clubs to drop in 1, 2 or 3 rounds.

 

May I ask how you play this after, say, a spade lead?

[Cyberyeti]

This one is interesting:

 

If hearts are 3-2 and one ruff establishes the diamonds, you need the queen of clubs to drop in 1, 2 or 3 rounds.

 

May I ask how you play this after, say, a spade lead?

You are correct I think, specifically a spade lead does cause a communication blockage. Curiously given how passive most people go on opening lead against grands, the lack of spade cards might well help, I think it's very unlikely one will be led from Hxxx for example.

 

On a spade lead if the diamonds don't run you need the Q♣ to drop in 2, on any other lead you can have it dropping in 3.

[junyi_zhu]

[hv=d=n&v=n&n=s732hat73dk8cj942&s=sa4hkq82daqt32cak]133|200|Scoring: IMP[/hv]

 

This hand is from a fairly strong Norwegian team tournament.

The heart slam was only bid at 4 out of 20 tables. One table played 6NT.

 

Most pairs (including my partner and me) play natural systems (acol or 2/1) with 2♣ as only force.

 

How would you bid the slam?

 

Regards

Kristian

2C 2D

2H(may have 4 if holding a longer m) 3D(4+ card H, extra value)

3S(cue) 4D(cue, showing extra value in the range, serious slam interest)

4S(RKC) 4N(1 or 4)

6C(CK) 6D(DK)

6H( I have pretty much shown my hand) pass (nothing much to show).

[mike777]

<!-- NORTHSOUTH begin --><table border=1> <tr> <td> <table> <tr> <td>Dealer:</td> <td> North </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Vul:</td> <td> N/S </td> </tr> <tr> <td>Scoring:</td> <td> IMP </td> </tr> </table> </td> <td> <table border='1'> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> 732 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> AT73 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> K8 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> J942 </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> <tr> <th> <table> <tr> <th class='spades'>♠</th> <td> A4 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='hearts'>♥</th> <td> KQ82 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='diamonds'>♦</th> <td> AQT32 </td> </tr> <tr> <th class='clubs'>♣</th> <td> AK </td> </tr> </table> </th> </tr> </table> </td> <td>  </td> </tr> </table><!-- NORTHSOUTH end -->

 

This hand is from a fairly strong Norwegian team tournament.

The heart slam was only bid at 4 out of 20 tables. One table played 6NT.

 

Most pairs (including my partner and me) play natural systems (acol or 2/1) with 2♣ as only force.

 

How would you bid the slam?

 

Regards

Kristian

maybe?

 

 

p=2c=2d

3h=4s

5c=5d

6c=6d

6h

 

2d=random a or k..gf

3h=5+d and 4h. 3 loser hand or better

4s=rkc in h

5c=1-4

5d=q ask

6c= shows qh and KC deny KD and KS.

6d shows KD/grand try.

[PrinceNep]

Perhaps:

 

P - 2♣

2♦ - 2NT

3♣ - 3♥

3♠ ....

......... 6♥

 

3♠ = Artificial , agreeing ♥ , slam invite.

(If you dont play this, bid whatever agrees ♥s and invites slam, maybe 4♦ is cue for you?)

I like Mich-b's bidding, except over 3♠ I think South should bid 4♣ and then North 4♦. Now South can Keycard and realistically stop in 6♥ ... bidding 7♥ on state of the match (Jxx in one suit and 3-2 in another happens sometimes, right?).

[Zelandakh]

Dealer: North Vul: N/S Scoring: IMP

♠ 732 ♥ AT73 ♦ K8 ♣ J942 ♠ A4 ♥ KQ82 ♦ AQT32 ♣ AK

 

This hand is from a fairly strong Norwegian team tournament.

The heart slam was only bid at 4 out of 20 tables. One table played 6NT.

 

Most pairs (including my partner and me) play natural systems (acol or 2/1) with 2♣ as only force.

 

How would you bid the slam?

 

Regards

Kristian

1C(1) - 1D(2)

1H(3) - 1S(4)

2N(5) - 3C(6)

3D(7) - 3S(.8.)

4C(9) - 4D(A)

4H(.B.) - 4S(.C.)

4N(D) - 6H(E)

 

1. 15+ bal/nat, or 18+ any

2. 0-8 any

3. 18-20 any, or 23+ bal

4. relay

5. 23-24 bal

6. puppet Stayman

7. 3-4 spades and/or 4 hearts

8. 4 hearts

9. 4 hearts, would accept a slam try

A. puppet to 4H

B. forced

C. RKCB

D. 1 or 4

E. not enough general strength to make a grand likely

 

For 'natural' system just come in at Note 5 after 2C-2D-2NT.

[655321]

Depends what I open, if I open 1♦ it's easy:

Not so easy this time it seems. It is customary on the forums when given both hands to bid to notice the best contract then construct an auction, however improbable, to reach it. 7♥ is a fairly abominable contract.

Abominable being slightly with the odds I think.

 

I haven't done exact numbers where the break in one suit affects the distibution of other suits, nor have I taken into account entries, etc when playing the hand, but the a priori numbers a good enough to give a rough idea:-

 

If diamonds and hearts behave you're cold for this.

35.05%

 

If diamonds behave and hearts are 4-1 onside, and the third round club ruff stands up or the Q drops in 1 or 2 you're fine.

Diamonds coming in for 5 tricks and hearts 4-1 onside (including singleton J offside) is 7.30%. The chance of dropping a singleton or doubleton ♣Q is less than 10%, for 0.71% in total. The chance of clubs being 4-3 is 62%, for 4.54% in total. On top of that you will occasionally be ably to ruff the 3rd round of clubs even when they are 5-2, but that will be a very low percentage number which I have not included. All up, I get 5.25% for this.

 

If hearts are 3-2 and one ruff establishes the diamonds, you need the queen of clubs to drop in 1, 2 or 3 rounds.

7.96%, the a priori odds of ruffing out the ♣Q are 36.3%, without taking entries into account.

 

There are also plenty of possiblilities if J♥ is single and some where J♦ is.

The chance of these events (not the chance of making the contract given these events) are 2.8% for the ♥J singleton onside (I already included most of the ♥J singleton offside) and 2.4% for the ♦J being singleton.

 

I don't see that you can stretch these numbers into anything other than a comfortably anti-percentage grand. So, if you want to double-dummy an auction to the bad 7♥, fair enough, but you could consider leaving out the bit about how easy these hands are for you.

[kenrexford]

Seems easy using normal methods.

 

As an aside, using a few abnormal methods:

 

New Frontiers

P-2♣(strong with usually less than 4 spades)

2♦(GF)-2♠(four hearts, longer minor (or 4-1-4-4)

3♣(artificial heart raise -- no shortness)-3♦(diamonds)

3♥(heart honor)-3♠(cue)

4♦(diamond honor)...now thinking grand

 

Modified "Kokish"

P-2♣

2♦(GF)-2♥(4-card major with longer minor, or 5+ heart unbalanced)

2♠(yes?)-2NT(4-card major, longer minor)

3♣(yes?)-3♦(diamonds plus major)

3♥(hearts?)-4♣(yes, cue)

4♦(diamond honor, interest)-4NT(RKCB)

[one]...now thinking grand, again

[Cyberyeti]

Depends what I open, if I open 1♦ it's easy:

Not so easy this time it seems. It is customary on the forums when given both hands to bid to notice the best contract then construct an auction, however improbable, to reach it. 7♥ is a fairly abominable contract.

Abominable being slightly with the odds I think.

 

I haven't done exact numbers where the break in one suit affects the distibution of other suits, nor have I taken into account entries, etc when playing the hand, but the a priori numbers a good enough to give a rough idea:-

 

If diamonds and hearts behave you're cold for this.

35.05%

 

If diamonds behave and hearts are 4-1 onside, and the third round club ruff stands up or the Q drops in 1 or 2 you're fine.

Diamonds coming in for 5 tricks and hearts 4-1 onside (including singleton J offside) is 7.30%. The chance of dropping a singleton or doubleton ♣Q is less than 10%, for 0.71% in total. The chance of clubs being 4-3 is 62%, for 4.54% in total. On top of that you will occasionally be ably to ruff the 3rd round of clubs even when they are 5-2, but that will be a very low percentage number which I have not included. All up, I get 5.25% for this.

 

If hearts are 3-2 and one ruff establishes the diamonds, you need the queen of clubs to drop in 1, 2 or 3 rounds.

7.96%, the a priori odds of ruffing out the ♣Q are 36.3%, without taking entries into account.

 

There are also plenty of possiblilities if J♥ is single and some where J♦ is.

The chance of these events (not the chance of making the contract given these events) are 2.8% for the ♥J singleton onside (I already included most of the ♥J singleton offside) and 2.4% for the ♦J being singleton.

 

I don't see that you can stretch these numbers into anything other than a comfortably anti-percentage grand. So, if you want to double-dummy an auction to the bad 7♥, fair enough, but you could consider leaving out the bit about how easy these hands are for you.

If I add up your percentages correctly, I get it to around 48.3% plus some small extra bits so it's pretty close to exactly 50-50 (with the complication that the spade lead reduces this slightly, and that if hearts are 3-2, diamonds are more likely to behave, but this only adds about 0.6% overall). At the point you choose whether to bit it or not this is not an exact science. It's certainly not abominable although not one you'd want to be in given the chance of people not bidding the small slam.

 

For example, you can have a slam on a finesse where one auction says it can't be better than a finesse, and another says it can't be worse than one, so it's correct to bid it on one but not the other.

 

This is one of those cases, partner has a pretty unsuitable hand, and it's still around evens. The chances of partner holding any of a a third diamond, J♦, J♥, Q♣ instead of the J vs the chance that he's 4432 or missing the J♣ or 10♥.

 

If you know, looking at the big hand that partner has ace to 4 hearts, at least semi balanced and the king of diamonds to 1-3 plus say up to 3 other points that aren't the king of spades, I'd suggest that the grand is with the odds at the point you bid it.

[655321]

Yes well, the word abominable was my feeble attempt at humor.

[jdonn]

Seems easy using normal methods.

 

As an aside, using a few abnormal methods:

 

New Frontiers

P-2♣(strong with usually less than 4 spades)

2♦(GF)-2♠(four hearts, longer minor (or 4-1-4-4)

3♣(artificial heart raise -- no shortness)-3♦(diamonds)

3♥(heart honor)-3♠(cue)

4♦(diamond honor)...now thinking grand

 

Modified "Kokish"

P-2♣

2♦(GF)-2♥(4-card major with longer minor, or 5+ heart unbalanced)

2♠(yes?)-2NT(4-card major, longer minor)

3♣(yes?)-3♦(diamonds plus major)

3♥(hearts?)-4♣(yes, cue)

4♦(diamond honor, interest)-4NT(RKCB)

[one]...now thinking grand, again

I don't mean to imply any dishonesty on your part but I always wonder what your expensive bids show. Rarely do I see you produce any auction but those in which after the first round 80% of the bids are the cheapest available call and the other 20% are the next cheapest. No wonder you always get so much information across!